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Coilovers & Strut Brace for EB 

 

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Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:42 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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tickford_6 wrote:
stop spreading misinformation......

here is a pic of the falcon setup.

the top of the spring and shock are bolted to the shock tower. the spring and shock carry all of the load of the front of the car. %100 of the load carried by the spring is supported by the shock tower.
the shock/spring is also angled inward, no straight up. there is a force trying to push the towers inwards......

want proof any one here that has a trolly jack can proove it. simply jack up the car from under the K-frame. messure the distance between the two towers. drop the car on the ground and messure again. it will be different


Thanks for your post. I dont check in with this forum as often as I'd like to so you'll have to excuse the late reply. I did contemplate not replying at all as in some instances people get so stuck on their limited understanding of a concept that they ignore whats sitting in front of them staring them in the face.

Initally, I asked for clarification of what was being talked about when you say 'strut brace'. I asked this for a very specific reason.

Keeping in mind that your E series falcons (again I'll happily admit that my knowledge on the E series is limited) use an upper and lower arm arrangment for front suspension rather than a commodore style macpherson strut, with the wheels on the ground, suspension load is transferred to the arms rather than a macpherson strut which is fastened directly in the tower itself. The spring and shock assembly are fastened to the tower for location and NOT to bare a load.

Some nice reading with cut away pictures can be easily found with some quick googling.

Your theory about jacking the car up via the frame and checking the distance between the towers is a fantastic one, the measured distance between the towers will naturally be different. Given the pickup points for the arms, with the suspension at full extension (unloaded) the weight of your front end components are pulling on on the arms, and as you'd expect there is noticable deformation/movement of the pick up points and therefore in the area you're referring to as a 'strut tower'

With the car on the ground though, and with suspension movement there will be chassis/subframe flex, however mounting a brace up high tying the two towers together is futile as its the pickup points for the arms that are your concern and not sheetmetal that doesnt bare a significant load.

Can an E series benefit from chassis/subframe bracing? definately
Would a brace between the sheetmetal surrounding the front towers be beneficial? Short answer is No, it wouldnt.
Longer answer is Yes, slightly, when combined with thorough bracing, seam welding and other chassis/subframe/shell strengthening/stiffening measures (as is the case with some competition vehicles) and/or when serious power is involved.

If we're talking in specifics, there really is no such thing as a 'strut brace' for a E series car (or any car with an upper and lower arm arrangement), as what you guys are referring to as a 'strut brace' is actually a 'chassis brace' for the purpose of reducing flex rather than carrying load.

There are some fantastic vehicle dynamics, suspension and racecar engineering theory books out there.

The following are well worth reading:

* Car Suspension at Work: Theory & Practice of Steering, Handling & Roadholding by Jeffrey Daniels
* Race Car Engineering & Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh
* How to Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn

Aside from that, read anything you can find at all if its written by Smokey Yunick.
There are also a lot of good circle-track (ie. nascar and speedway) books out there that you can take theory from, as most sedans in this style of racing also use an upper and lower arm arrangement, as a result some of it becomes relevant to you (even though you're going left AND right :D )

But as with anything you'd read on the internet, its really up to you if you want to pay attention to what I've written.

An easy way to test it would be to fab up a basic (not important if its rough for the sake of testing) brace that goes from tower to tower (ie. what you guys have been calling a 'strut brace') and drive the car around for a while in various conditions.

Then, remove it and do some bracing down low, this might be difficult, but if you're keen enough you could gusset around the front arm pickups, and then drive it around in similar conditions to what you did earlier.

I'd guarantee, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the latter scenario would be more beneficial.

BUT, no one would see your 'strut brace' and as a result, the guys at the next forum gathering might not be impressed and think its the coolest thing they've ever seen.

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:03 am 
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weeman wrote:
Pedders do a front strut brace


they also do the coil overs. there part of the pedders extreme series

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:24 am 
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Nolathane definately do front coil overs and strut brace. I saw it in the catalogue on the weekend.

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:44 am 
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ashvolvo wrote:
tickford_6 wrote:
stop spreading misinformation......

here is a pic of the falcon setup.

the top of the spring and shock are bolted to the shock tower. the spring and shock carry all of the load of the front of the car. %100 of the load carried by the spring is supported by the shock tower.
the shock/spring is also angled inward, no straight up. there is a force trying to push the towers inwards......

want proof any one here that has a trolly jack can proove it. simply jack up the car from under the K-frame. messure the distance between the two towers. drop the car on the ground and messure again. it will be different


Thanks for your post. I dont check in with this forum as often as I'd like to so you'll have to excuse the late reply. I did contemplate not replying at all as in some instances people get so stuck on their limited understanding of a concept that they ignore whats sitting in front of them staring them in the face.

Initally, I asked for clarification of what was being talked about when you say 'strut brace'. I asked this for a very specific reason.

Keeping in mind that your E series falcons (again I'll happily admit that my knowledge on the E series is limited) use an upper and lower arm arrangment for front suspension rather than a commodore style macpherson strut, with the wheels on the ground, suspension load is transferred to the arms rather than a macpherson strut which is fastened directly in the tower itself. The spring and shock assembly are fastened to the tower for location and NOT to bare a load.

Some nice reading with cut away pictures can be easily found with some quick googling.

Your theory about jacking the car up via the frame and checking the distance between the towers is a fantastic one, the measured distance between the towers will naturally be different. Given the pickup points for the arms, with the suspension at full extension (unloaded) the weight of your front end components are pulling on on the arms, and as you'd expect there is noticable deformation/movement of the pick up points and therefore in the area you're referring to as a 'strut tower'

With the car on the ground though, and with suspension movement there will be chassis/subframe flex, however mounting a brace up high tying the two towers together is futile as its the pickup points for the arms that are your concern and not sheetmetal that doesnt bare a significant load.

Can an E series benefit from chassis/subframe bracing? definately
Would a brace between the sheetmetal surrounding the front towers be beneficial? Short answer is No, it wouldnt.
Longer answer is Yes, slightly, when combined with thorough bracing, seam welding and other chassis/subframe/shell strengthening/stiffening measures (as is the case with some competition vehicles) and/or when serious power is involved.

If we're talking in specifics, there really is no such thing as a 'strut brace' for a E series car (or any car with an upper and lower arm arrangement), as what you guys are referring to as a 'strut brace' is actually a 'chassis brace' for the purpose of reducing flex rather than carrying load.

There are some fantastic vehicle dynamics, suspension and racecar engineering theory books out there.

The following are well worth reading:

* Car Suspension at Work: Theory & Practice of Steering, Handling & Roadholding by Jeffrey Daniels
* Race Car Engineering & Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh
* How to Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn

Aside from that, read anything you can find at all if its written by Smokey Yunick.
There are also a lot of good circle-track (ie. nascar and speedway) books out there that you can take theory from, as most sedans in this style of racing also use an upper and lower arm arrangement, as a result some of it becomes relevant to you (even though you're going left AND right :D )

But as with anything you'd read on the internet, its really up to you if you want to pay attention to what I've written.

An easy way to test it would be to fab up a basic (not important if its rough for the sake of testing) brace that goes from tower to tower (ie. what you guys have been calling a 'strut brace') and drive the car around for a while in various conditions.

Then, remove it and do some bracing down low, this might be difficult, but if you're keen enough you could gusset around the front arm pickups, and then drive it around in similar conditions to what you did earlier.

I'd guarantee, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the latter scenario would be more beneficial.

BUT, no one would see your 'strut brace' and as a result, the guys at the next forum gathering might not be impressed and think its the coolest thing they've ever seen.


thanks for your post. i come here often so you'll see why the reply came so fast, I did contemplate not replying at all as in some instances people get so cought up in there own self glorification that they seem to completely miss the point of whats said and

it's more the fact that a simple tower brace is cheap and easy to fit, that will provide SOME benifit.
it's not like we are building race cars,
no one ever said it was best way to go about it, i was only pulling you up on the fact that it will help. saying it wont help at all like you did is crap.

BUT, if any one is the one trying to impress a internet forum it's you, or why els paint your brace bright yellow or tell everyone how many books you've read. :roll: :roll: :wink:

one last thing front end components pulling on the arms you say. maybe you should go find a falcon put it on a hoist take a few messurements, rip the entire front end out and messure again. pulling on the amrs :roll: whats next the the drivers door is opened by the passenger handle :roll:

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:23 am 
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I think, despite all your reading ashvolvo, you may be a tiny bit wrong. The shock absorber and spring combo for the front suspension of E-series falcons is what i'm calling a strut, and therefore i call the brace that joins them together, a strut brace. They most definately do take the load of the car, the spring set the static ride height and the spring is seated to the shock absorber which is bolted to the lower arm which is bolted to the wheel. Therefore, when the wheel pushes up, the strut/spring takes the load and in turn pushes up on the bodywork that it bolts to (the strut towers which we are talking about bracing). If you were to remove the strut assembely, the car would drop until the body touched the upper arm or the tire, therefore the upper and lowers are DO NOT hold the vehicle "up", they simply hold the wheel and associated bits to the car and allow it to bounce.

Also, i'm not after a strut brace for aesthetic value, i'm much more interested in the functional purpose, i'd still use one if it was rusty mild steel as long as it served a useful purpose (handling wise).

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:27 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Slabz wrote:
I think, despite all your reading ashvolvo, you may be a tiny bit wrong. The shock absorber and spring combo for the front suspension of E-series falcons is what i'm calling a strut, and therefore i call the brace that joins them together, a strut brace.

I realise this completely and was deliberatly knit-picking to make a point. The point being that the top of the tower, where your strut and spring assembly are anchored isnt a load baring point of any major significance. Your arms are really the key point here and bracing done up toward the top of the tower isnt beneficial. It would be more effective to brace the pick up points where your arms mount.

After all, look at what you are aiming to achieve with any sort of suspension bracing - to ensure that load baring points do not move away from where they're supposed to be thus changing suspension geometry mid corner or when loaded.

My saying that this area sees no load, was simplifying things greatly - of course theres a load, but when compared to the actual working points of the front arms, its insignificant in an otherwise unmodified car (read: pointless for the common road-going E series)

Slabz wrote:
They most definately do take the load of the car, the spring set the static ride height and the spring is seated to the shock absorber which is bolted to the lower arm which is bolted to the wheel. Therefore, when the wheel pushes up, the strut/spring takes the load and in turn pushes up on the bodywork that it bolts to (the strut towers which we are talking about bracing). If you were to remove the strut assembely, the car would drop until the body touched the upper arm or the tire, therefore the upper and lowers are DO NOT hold the vehicle "up", they simply hold the wheel and associated bits to the car and allow it to bounce.


Static ride height of your spring really isnt greatly governed by the top of the tower, sure the tower is a means of holding it all in there and providing a point at which to stop, but it really is your arms doing all the work.

I'm not speaking here simply from reading suspension theory (although it does make bloody good reading), I have had some years of motorsports experience at a professional level and more recently competing at club level (because it is such good fun).

Slabz wrote:
Also, i'm not after a strut brace for aesthetic value, i'm much more interested in the functional purpose, i'd still use one if it was rusty mild steel as long as it served a useful purpose (handling wise).


It's certainly worth a shot. and you could easily knock something up in an afternoon and try it out. Be sure to post back and let us know how you go.


tickford_6 wrote:
thanks for your post. i come here often so you'll see why the reply came so fast, I did contemplate not replying at all as in some instances people get so cought up in there own self glorification that they seem to completely miss the point of whats said....


I read through what was said several times before making a post. Unless fordmods is different from other forums, my understanding is that its about bouncing ideas around, helping with answers to questions and generally providing information for the common good of all?

Self-glorification? If you'd be kind enough to point out examples of this in my post that would be fantastic, I'll then edit it and clarify any misunderstandings that are concerning you.

tickford_6 wrote:
it's more the fact that a simple tower brace is cheap and easy to fit, that will provide SOME benifit.


If you read through my post, I stated my opinion (based on sound engineering and suspension theory) that the benefit, if any, would be unnoticable. It might be worth knocking one together over a weekend (as suggested above) if you're not convinced, and drive it and experience it for yourself.

tickford_6 wrote:
it's not like we are building race cars


Very true. This is precisly why it isnt worth the bother of doing it. If combined with other, more significant modification (ie a motrosports application), you'd do it anyway with sound knowledge that its a tiny part of an overall solution.

tickford_6 wrote:
no one ever said it was best way to go about it, i was only pulling you up on the fact that it will help. saying it wont help at all like you did is crap.


I'll happily disagree with you on this. In my opinion and my experience with similar suspension setups to the E series arrangement, It will provide no noticable benefit to your handling. As above though, it wouldnt take much work to test it out for yourself.

tickford_6 wrote:
BUT, if any one is the one trying to impress a internet forum it's you, or why els paint your brace bright yellow or tell everyone how many books you've read.

Your sarcasm is obviously as a result of a misunderstanding of my post earlier. you have my apologies if you've misread something that I neglected to make clear.

Not that I owe you an explanation for the (yes, I'll be the first to admit its hideous) yellow brace, but the car in the pic above is our track car. It gets used for club events, club level circuit sprints, hillclimbs, motorkhanas, etc (just basic fun stuff) As a result we take it to shows and it gets put on display in car showrooms, etc now and then. As such, we needed to have all the products that we fabricate (and sell) easily visible so that they can be pointed out to potential customers/interested parties.
On a red car, 'lemon yellow' stands out well and makes this task easier (although I personally hate the color). Our standard color for components is charcoal metallic pearl, which is a lot nicer. :D

The books I mentioned are fantastic. Who knows, spending $20 or $30 on a book might save you spending $150 on a brace that is of no noticable benefit. If you're interested in good handling, they really are well worth a read.

tickford_6 wrote:
one last thing front end components pulling on the arms you say. maybe you should go find a falcon put it on a hoist take a few messurements, rip the entire front end out and messure again. pulling on the amrs whats next the the drivers door is opened by the passenger handle


If you let me know what part of the concept is unclear, I'll again re-word it for you. when I say 'pulling' I was referring to the way load is transferred to them.

As your post is largely unrelated to this thread and appears (although I may not be correct here) to be a personal attack, you're welcome to PM me to discuss further rather then polute an interesting banter of ideas and theory.

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:53 am 
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A strut brace won't really have any major effect on suspension geometry with a double wishbone setup, but will help increase chassis rigidity.
Technically speaking though, if the strut towers are flexing, this would also be affecting (to a certain degree) the anchoring points for the top A-arm. Whether it would be enough to effect handling - who knows.
So maybe you are both right :)

I can't see how it would hurt though. Probably just a worthwhile little mod to keep the car feeling tighter.

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:20 am 
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Last edited by blackjack_original on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:10 am 
Smokin em up
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ive got koni coilover shocks in mine! but its an el! awesome things hey! espically if u get a yellow sticker for been to low just wind it up! hehehe
but there pretty pricey!
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:11 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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blackjack_original wrote:
Which is why i think slabz wanted to know about them in the first place. I think he wants to drift his falcon, going by his posts on nissansilvia.


Lol, true :lol:

BTW, whats your name on NS blackjack_original?

 

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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:38 pm 
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ashvolvo wrote:
Slabz wrote:
I think, despite all your reading ashvolvo, you may be a tiny bit wrong. The shock absorber and spring combo for the front suspension of E-series falcons is what i'm calling a strut, and therefore i call the brace that joins them together, a strut brace.

I realise this completely and was deliberatly knit-picking to make a point. The point being that the top of the tower, where your strut and spring assembly are anchored isnt a load baring point of any major significance. Your arms are really the key point here and bracing done up toward the top of the tower isnt beneficial. It would be more effective to brace the pick up points where your arms mount.

After all, look at what you are aiming to achieve with any sort of suspension bracing - to ensure that load baring points do not move away from where they're supposed to be thus changing suspension geometry mid corner or when loaded.

My saying that this area sees no load, was simplifying things greatly - of course theres a load, but when compared to the actual working points of the front arms, its insignificant in an otherwise unmodified car (read: pointless for the common road-going E series)

Slabz wrote:
They most definately do take the load of the car, the spring set the static ride height and the spring is seated to the shock absorber which is bolted to the lower arm which is bolted to the wheel. Therefore, when the wheel pushes up, the strut/spring takes the load and in turn pushes up on the bodywork that it bolts to (the strut towers which we are talking about bracing). If you were to remove the strut assembely, the car would drop until the body touched the upper arm or the tire, therefore the upper and lowers are DO NOT hold the vehicle "up", they simply hold the wheel and associated bits to the car and allow it to bounce.


Static ride height of your spring really isnt greatly governed by the top of the tower, sure the tower is a means of holding it all in there and providing a point at which to stop, but it really is your arms doing all the work.

I'm not speaking here simply from reading suspension theory (although it does make bloody good reading), I have had some years of motorsports experience at a professional level and more recently competing at club level (because it is such good fun).

Slabz wrote:
Also, i'm not after a strut brace for aesthetic value, i'm much more interested in the functional purpose, i'd still use one if it was rusty mild steel as long as it served a useful purpose (handling wise).


It's certainly worth a shot. and you could easily knock something up in an afternoon and try it out. Be sure to post back and let us know how you go.


tickford_6 wrote:
thanks for your post. i come here often so you'll see why the reply came so fast, I did contemplate not replying at all as in some instances people get so cought up in there own self glorification that they seem to completely miss the point of whats said....


I read through what was said several times before making a post. Unless fordmods is different from other forums, my understanding is that its about bouncing ideas around, helping with answers to questions and generally providing information for the common good of all?

Self-glorification? If you'd be kind enough to point out examples of this in my post that would be fantastic, I'll then edit it and clarify any misunderstandings that are concerning you.

tickford_6 wrote:
it's more the fact that a simple tower brace is cheap and easy to fit, that will provide SOME benifit.


If you read through my post, I stated my opinion (based on sound engineering and suspension theory) that the benefit, if any, would be unnoticable. It might be worth knocking one together over a weekend (as suggested above) if you're not convinced, and drive it and experience it for yourself.

tickford_6 wrote:
it's not like we are building race cars


Very true. This is precisly why it isnt worth the bother of doing it. If combined with other, more significant modification (ie a motrosports application), you'd do it anyway with sound knowledge that its a tiny part of an overall solution.

tickford_6 wrote:
no one ever said it was best way to go about it, i was only pulling you up on the fact that it will help. saying it wont help at all like you did is crap.


I'll happily disagree with you on this. In my opinion and my experience with similar suspension setups to the E series arrangement, It will provide no noticable benefit to your handling. As above though, it wouldnt take much work to test it out for yourself.

tickford_6 wrote:
BUT, if any one is the one trying to impress a internet forum it's you, or why els paint your brace bright yellow or tell everyone how many books you've read.

Your sarcasm is obviously as a result of a misunderstanding of my post earlier. you have my apologies if you've misread something that I neglected to make clear.

Not that I owe you an explanation for the (yes, I'll be the first to admit its hideous) yellow brace, but the car in the pic above is our track car. It gets used for club events, club level circuit sprints, hillclimbs, motorkhanas, etc (just basic fun stuff) As a result we take it to shows and it gets put on display in car showrooms, etc now and then. As such, we needed to have all the products that we fabricate (and sell) easily visible so that they can be pointed out to potential customers/interested parties.
On a red car, 'lemon yellow' stands out well and makes this task easier (although I personally hate the color). Our standard color for components is charcoal metallic pearl, which is a lot nicer. :D

The books I mentioned are fantastic. Who knows, spending $20 or $30 on a book might save you spending $150 on a brace that is of no noticable benefit. If you're interested in good handling, they really are well worth a read.

tickford_6 wrote:
one last thing front end components pulling on the arms you say. maybe you should go find a falcon put it on a hoist take a few messurements, rip the entire front end out and messure again. pulling on the amrs whats next the the drivers door is opened by the passenger handle


If you let me know what part of the concept is unclear, I'll again re-word it for you. when I say 'pulling' I was referring to the way load is transferred to them.

As your post is largely unrelated to this thread and appears (although I may not be correct here) to be a personal attack, you're welcome to PM me to discuss further rather then polute an interesting banter of ideas and theory.



isn't it funny when you get a post directed at you writen in the same manner you choose to use, it suddenly becomes a personal attack

glad to see i achieved what i set out to do, cheers

 

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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:52 am 
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Just a quick one, Noltec also do coil overs for eseries. Very nice ones at that, full adjustable fronts, non adjustable backs

 

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