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Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:49 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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61xkwagon wrote:
Also might come down to where you have your seat it is harder to control a clutch when you have to fully extend your leg to get it to touch the floor I'm just under 6ft and my seat is just about as far forward as I can have it. I didn't believe it till I tried it


I would agree with that. I just have a normal organic clutch and 167cm of height, but there is a massive difference between wearing my work boots and normal shoes. Never driven a car where seat position mattered so much.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Ride: ford falcon au3 xr8

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i just had the same issue after fitting a brass cusion button clutch, i expected a slightly harsh engagement but nothing like this.. :shock: it was horible to drive, it was shaking the car to pieces from trying not to wheel spin of every set of lights,
untill i fixed my problem, i fixed it good by getting frustrated with the clutch and drove it like i stole it and with 270rwkw smashed the t5 to pieces and twisted the input shaft like a piece of licorice.. :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:

in my case auto is the answer... :)
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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:50 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Hmmmm guess its just the clutch then! I had been following your build thread troyman about your efforts to find a decent clutch to hold the power. I thought the same as you. it might shudder a little bit when it engages but boy was i wrong! it seriously does literally shake the car to pieces!!! I feel like something is going to break everytime i slip it a bit. i have found that if i give the car heaps of revs and let the clutch out a certain way its not too bad. Its like you have to launch it at every take off though to avoid the huge shudder.

I think im just going to use it until it breaks and then chuck in an auto, seems to be the only answer atm. it just annoys me that all the other cushion button clutches i have driven in different cars like skylines seem to be very smooth but very on or off. So troyman, you dont think its a prob with the install, but just how these clutches behave? i just dont want to waste another day pulling out my gearbox and looking for a problem thats not there!!

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:08 am 
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im 99.9% mine was installed correct, even the guys that made the clutch said there would be some shudder due to the friction material, i was like you and thought a little would be fine, but for a car i drive everyday its no good.
i think the amount of shudder depends on wether the material is organic button or ceramic,brass. ect
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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:31 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 93 ED sedan

Power: 161 rwkw

Location: Rockhampton
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Saltez! wrote:
Hey guys. When i changed my clutch i replaced all the bearings and the rear main seal. (spigot bearing and thrust bearing). I didnt put any lube on the input shaft because i didnt want the grease to flick out onto the flywheel. My nephew who is a mechanic said that he never lubes the input shaft for this reason. I thought the lube only assisted in the initial install of the gearbox to make it slide in easier. i used the clutch alignment tool and the box slid in real easy.

Clutch fork wear plate???? What is this? I only had the clutch fork and the little allen key bolt . the fork did slide out from the bolt quite easy. when i installed the bellhousing the clutch fork did fall out and i had to poke it behind the allen key bolt again. Is there meant to be something holding the fork in??? If this was missing, would it cause my issue? i imagined once the fork was under pressure it would be okay?


There's a problem for a start....no lube on the input shaft spline.
I use slightly dried antiseize compound on the spline, clutch fork pivot, and the where the throw-out bearing contacts the fork. ( PBR used to supply spline lube with their clutch kits years ago).
I have never had problems with shudder, or getting it on the flywheel.
I am a mechanic with over 20 years expirience.
This ( see pic ) is the wear plate that goes under the " Shoulder Bolt " that holds the fork.
If the fork and shoulder bolt are in good condition, you can not pull the fork out.
Did you use a torque wrench for the flywheel bolts????......if not, and they are overtightened, it can pull the rear of the crank out of shape ( That info is from Ford ).

 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:13 am 
Oompa Loompa
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i would spend the day and remove the box and look at everything cjh has said, these t5's with a heavy cable clutch need everything to be in good shape, throwout bearing retainer, splines ,release fork and pivot points anything in doubt replace it. it may not make it perfect but will definately help. also look at the engine and gearbox mounts while your at it
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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:36 pm 
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imo it dont matter what you do.
if its a brass or ceramic button clutch it will still have shudder of some sort unless your just power launching every time you take off..
mine had new cable, new clevis bushes, new throw out arm pivot seat, all moving part were greased where needed, the input splines and thrust bearing carrier had a small amount of lube, all mating surfaces were new machined and free of contaminates..

with practice i managed to reduce the shudder to a minimum, but was still to harsh for every day sydney traffic..
i learnt that you cant get or expect factory smooth results from a race style clutches..
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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Mmm lots of good info and options for me here.
I used a torque wrench for every bolt that i put in. Except the ones you cant get to like the bellhousing bolts. That clutch fork wear plate is long gone!!!!! The fork looked new cause it had manfacturers stickers on. The bearing that slots into the fork was renewed and greased, it clips in really well and the tabs are in good nick.. Having no grease on the input shaft and no clutch fork wear plate might be causing some issues! Whats the go with the wear plate? Is its fuction just to take up the slack between the fork and the bolt? Will any piece of decent metal with a hole drilled in it work or should i try to find the ford part number?

I might be a bit thick here but im tryin to understand how a non greased spline can cause clutch shudder. Im sure there is a pretty obvious logical reason but i cant seem to get my head around how? Could someone explain please?

Looks like ill be sliding out my gearbox again to renew this clutch fork wear plate which is non existantand grease the spline with high temp bearing grease. Providing the flywheel has been machined correctly then theres not much more i can do i guess and its just how the clutch is.

What else should i lube in there considering all bearings are new and have been lubed from the clutch kit?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Oh. And of course lube the clutch fork pivot and the 2 tabs where the bearing sits. High temp bearing grease okay?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:35 am 
Getting Side Ways
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I use anti-sieze compound....you don't need to plaster it on, just a smear is enough.
Why does the spline need lube ????....To put it very bluntly, ever had a dry ro0t ????....it ain't good for either of you......
The driven clutch plate ( the friction material bit ) does slide back and forth on the spline with the operation of the clutch.....granted, it isn't far, but nonetheless it moves.
Same deal for where the throw bearing slides on.
How good of a condition is the clutch cable?????.....a worn lining inside will make the clutch feel terrible.
As for the wear plate, you should be able to buy them from Ford.....get a new shoulder bolt too.........should get change out of $20 for both.
But the best lesson here is......Horses for courses.
Brass/Ceramic type clutches are for the track.
Traditional style materials for the street.
I have a PBR RPM clutch kit with the traditional style friction material, and have no problems with slipping or shudder......I have a tested 150 rwkw.
http://youtu.be/jJTh9F3Vgg0
I have since fitted an EF XR6 cam, and is yet to be dyno'd.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Huuuuge clutch shudder with cushion button clutch!!! Normal?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Thanks for your info CJH. You explained that really well. I now get why it has to be lubed. Even though the driven clutch plate only moves a bit. It still needs lube. I guess its about all the 1% things you do which can add up to 10-20% clutch feel difference. Next time I have a spare arvo i'll go up to my nephews and borrow his toolbox fix up that clutch plate, shoulder bolt and add some lube lol. Ratchet spanners make the job sooo much quicker. Its good having a nephew as a mechanic. I really need to get some more tools though......

The clutch cable is in fairly good nick. I also am having a problem with this rattle noise coming from the gear box under light acceleration. It does it in all gears. Only sometimes though. I thought it was the input shaft rattling around, hence why I changed the gear box. After all the help I have received in here, Im starting to think its the clutch fork rattling as there is no wear plate. The noise was the same for both gear boxes and definitely is something happening in the bellhousing. Its always the 2cent o ring or 20cent washer which you miss which ends up causing you the annoying problems lol

Quote:
But the best lesson here is......Horses for courses.
Brass/Ceramic type clutches are for the track.


That is definitely the best lesson. The even better lesson would be. If your going for over 250rwkw. Get an automatic!!!!!!!

But in all seriousness, if your thinking about getting a cushion button clutch and are expecting a bit of shudder. Think again, your going to get a HUUUUGE amount of shudder but thats the price you pay for big rwkw and a t5. I am getting used to "launching it" from take off so I dont have the shudder. When reversing up the driveway I get around it by pulling out the pedal a bit and giving it heaps of revs the pushing the pedal back in before the shudder point. Granted thats not too good for the clutch but its better than rattling my car to pieces. But for me who's aiming around 250rwkw forced induction this clutch was the only option for me :) besides the auto...... Kinda wish I went auto now.....

 

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