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Modifying Auto Shift Points 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:02 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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yes but what happens when your on a highway, and go to overtake someone, kick it back into 2nd, it hits the limiter and either doesnt go into 3rd, or goes into 3rd then drops back into 2nd because of the mismatch between the roadspeed and rpm?
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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:13 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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66 coupe wrote:
yes but what happens when your on a highway, and go to overtake someone, kick it back into 2nd, it hits the limiter and either doesnt go into 3rd, or goes into 3rd then drops back into 2nd because of the mismatch between the roadspeed and rpm?

I did another edit but again your response is relevant.

Couldn't you just wait till it hits the limiter then back off a fraction, it will change up, and as long as you don't floor it again too quickly it shouldn't change back?

So is the gap really that small that you can't tweak the next speedo gear?

Maybe you could put the trans in normal mode for overtaking? But there is the risk you could forget, or find that annoying to have to think about.

Maybe this is all academic for those that go to a larger diff ratio, but for those that put bigger diameter wheels on without changing the ratio, or fully compensating for the increase, there is an issue there.

If the normal mode was a proper normal mode and the sport mode a proper sport mode there wouldn't be a problem. But since the normal mode is way tardy and the sport mode is essentially a normal mode, there is a problem.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:24 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Changing diff ratio's or wheel sizes will not alter the shift points. The ecu will always change gears in relation to whats programmed into it (ie max road speed per gear, and max/min kickdown roadspeed)
The factory setup, the trans will shift before the engine hits the limiter, and with enough time to allow the trans to shift, without hitting the limiter.
Theres really no point in holding it to the limiter either - unless you have a real big cam you wont be making any power up there, and you will miss the torque peak in the next gear anyway.

Hitting the limiter and backing off - chances are it will jump up two gears instead of one, when you back off, engine load is decreased and the ecu may select 3rd instead of 2nd

As stated, changing the speedo drive gear will move the shift points, and is not an ideal solution. This is why we have the speedo correctors, and the relavent wiring mods so the ecu will operate as normal.

If you want every last rpm out of it, then either shift manually or change to a 5sp..

Edit: regarding your question "is the gap that small....."
The minimum adjustment you can make by changing speedo gears is approx 250rpm.
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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:47 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Thanks for all that.

My issue was and will be again that with the big tyres under normal acceleration it can change up too quickly. Even though it is changing up at a proportionately higher road speed, it still isn't enough, even in sport mode. Maybe that's because wind and some other resistances increase exponentially with speed? And likewise, when cruising up a hill it doesn't kick down soon enough.

My plan is to fit the big wheels again, this time to the EL fairmont, which will be worse than with the EBII because i will be looking at 3.08(?) instead of 3.27. In time i plan to get a 3.45 ratio, which will be a major improvement and may be all that's needed, as it will bring the effective ratio to about 2.97, which isn't far from the 3.08 i like (country driver). I don't think i want to go to a 3.7, and that would hurt resale too.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:10 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Just a correction, i finally found the tag on the EL fairmonts axle and it's a 3.23. The filler plug is black, and i have read if there is an lsd the plug is red. I don't figure there is an lsd anyway, ghia only, i think.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Keep in mind my answers are for an EF Auto with 3.9 Mini Spool. 113rwkw 500&sometingft.pd tourque

[quote="66 coupe"]Changing diff ratio's or wheel sizes will not alter the shift points. The ecu will always change gears in relation to whats programmed into it (ie max road speed per gear, and max/min kickdown roadspeed)

Agreed!

The factory setup, the trans will shift before the engine hits the limiter, and with enough time to allow the trans to shift, without hitting the limiter.
Not Always... :) but the shift into second ca be fun ;)

Theres really no point in holding it to the limiter either - unless you have a real big cam you wont be making any power up there, and you will miss the torque peak in the next gear anyway.
RPD R6?? is what it came with.

Hitting the limiter and backing off - chances are it will jump up two gears instead of one, when you back off, engine load is decreased and the ecu may select 3rd instead of 2nd
Very True

As stated, changing the speedo drive gear will move the shift points, and is not an ideal solution. This is why we have the speedo correctors, and the relavent wiring mods so the ecu will operate as normal.
Cant see you sig, msg me

If you want every last rpm out of it, then either shift manually or change to a 5sp..
When $$ permit a T5 is waitin.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:02 am 
Getting Side Ways
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
66 coupe wrote:
The way we do it is cut both white wires from the cluster, join them together and connect to the input of the corrector, and then connect the output of the corrector back to the input of the cluster.
Our correctors are designed specifically to operate in this configuration as the cluster no longer supplies the required voltages on the signal lines.

That actually confuses the crap out of me......


why..... look at the pretty little cartoon diagram i made.

it says exactly the same thing :shock: :?
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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:35 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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I did look at your cartoon, but in light of what you say i will look at it again. But i grasp the concept, and can surely work out the details if/when i fit a corrector.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:11 pm 
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basically gearbox sends a signal to the speedo cluster via the "speedo input wire". Intercept and alter this signal with a Speedo Corrector to show correct speed on the cluster.

Problem is, the modified signal then comes out of the cluster to the ECU via the "speedo output" wire, and mucks up shift points.

So you fix this by cutting the "speedo output" wire coming from the speedo cluster, and run the loom side of the cut "speedo output" wire and tap it into the "speedo input" wire before the speedo corrector has intercepted the signal. This is so the ECU sees the original "unaltered" signal that comes from the gearbox and shift points remain the same.

Hope this helps, as i know it can be confusing, especially since ive labelled the speedo input & output wires on the speedo corrector and didnt do the same for the cluster wires :oops:
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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:19 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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I also run a 3.9 spool in an auto V8 fairmont, and the way i fixed mine was to

1 Correct the speedo mechanically, by using an XD Sender in the box and a green gear. This made the speedo accurate.
then
2 intercept the signal before it reaches the ECU and use the speedo corrector. The goosd thing about the corrector is that it is fully adjustable from 1% to 100%, so i can alter the shift points by merely turning the trim pots. I scored mine from shiftkits.com. You could make the one in the Jaycar catologue but i chose to get mine from shift kist as it included a wiring diagram that showed where and which wires to cut
Brett

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:22 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Okay, gotcha now FordFairmont.


[Thinking about my efforts to create more revviness, i figure if you fitted a speedo drive gear with more teeth, it would spin slower, and therefore the car would think it is going slower, and therefore it would change up later, and change down sooner.

As long as you don't create the rev limiter problem and/or aren't willing to overtake in normal mode, assuming normal mode has lower change points at full throttle(?).

I guess this is a hijack because the thread starter and most people don't need to think about this mod, sorry to do this.]

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:27 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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TerroristGHIA wrote:
1 Correct the speedo mechanically, by using an XD Sender in the box and a green gear. This made the speedo accurate.
then
2 intercept the signal before it reaches the ECU and use the speedo corrector. The goosd thing about the corrector is that it is fully adjustable from 1% to 100%, so i can alter the shift points by merely turning the trim pots. I scored mine from shiftkits.com. You could make the one in the Jaycar catologue but i chose to get mine from shift kist as it included a wiring diagram that showed where and which wires to cut

Thats interesting, it might suit me better to do it this way.

If someone wasn't careful with this setup they could end up in dangerous overtaking scenarios though.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:58 pm 
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Quote:
I guess this is a hijack because the thread starter and most people don't need to think about this mod, sorry to do this.]


Not a hijack, I have similar setup to TerroristGHIA (I6-V8 what a few cylinders between friends)
But, he did hit the nail on the head!!

Now I know where the problem lies, how to fix it and where to get the parts.

Thanks to everyone's input. I hope this helps others in similar situations.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:09 pm 
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TerroristGHIA wrote:
I scored mine from shiftkits.com. You could make the one in the Jaycar catologue but i chose to get mine from shift kist as it included a wiring diagram that showed where and which wires to cut


Wiring diagram from Gregorys Manual for ECU is spot on, as soon as I have a scanner up and running I will post it, and any other anyone requests. I think I will take the jaycar option, I have a bit of electronic exp.
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
If someone wasn't careful with this setup they could end up in dangerous overtaking scenarios though.

It's a bit like that atm. 90-110ks in 4th then a quick boot then the auto wants to burst back to 2nd at 5200rpm, add shift kit and the change into 3rd can be hairy.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Modifying Auto Shift Points
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:12 pm 
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FordFairmont wrote:
basically gearbox sends a signal to the speedo cluster via the "speedo input wire". Intercept and alter this signal with a Speedo Corrector to show correct speed on the cluster.

Problem is, the modified signal then comes out of the cluster to the ECU via the "speedo output" wire, and mucks up shift points.

So you fix this by cutting the "speedo output" wire coming from the speedo cluster, and run the loom side of the cut "speedo output" wire and tap it into the "speedo input" wire before the speedo corrector has intercepted the signal. This is so the ECU sees the original "unaltered" signal that comes from the gearbox and shift points remain the same.

Hope this helps, as i know it can be confusing, especially since ive labelled the speedo input & output wires on the speedo corrector and didnt do the same for the cluster wires :oops:



Im doing the speedo job on the au atm and this gives me something to think about. my current aproach was to correct the signal to the dash, and then get a flash tune to alter the shift points. if you use the 2 corrector method you will hit the speed limiter early: ie, for me at 135km/h, when the car thinks its doing 180 (with 3.89 gears). decorrecting it gives you back your shift points, but stuffs up your speed limiter.

anyone got any pictures of this being installed that they want to share?

 

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