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Vibes (long post, sorry) 

 

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 Post subject: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:38 am 
Getting Side Ways
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G'day thrillseekers, I have an EL wagin, that I have lowered. It has been lowered now for about 4 years. Not by much, just with low king springs, so about maybe 25mm.

Being a wagon, it has leaf rears.

Anyway, because it is lowered, the uni joints are now out of their optimum operating angle, and are setting up a vibration at anything over 90k's. After 4 years, I am getting sick of the vibes.

I know how to fix it, and I can explain to ppl how to fix it, but I don't have the main piece of apparatus to fix it: a drive on hoist.

The other problem is that when I approach any "mechanic" about it, I get either a blank look, or a sudden flurry of activity that takes their attention elsewhere. :shock:

My question is this: of all the mechanics that read these posts, is there one out there that is willing to take on the task of re-aligning my uni joints?

Pleeeeaaasssseeee!!
I am happy to go almost anywhere in Melbourne (maybe even Vic?), but I am in the western 'burbs.

If you are not sure how to do it, I can send all the info that you can read up on. The main thing needed are a drive on hoist (so you can measure the joint angles while the car is at its natural stance) and an inclinometer, and a pad and pencil, oh, and a few small wedges.

For those that don't know, apparently the XR wagons, and AU XR utes had the same problem. Ford put out a fix, but do you think I can find anybody that remembers it!!!

:(
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:00 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Firstly, you dont need a drive-on hoist, just put the jack stands under the diff. If it has been vibrating for 4 years, due to uni misalignment, the unis would be well and truly rooted by now. My ute is lowered 2", and I have no misalignment/vibration issue. Maybe you need to try another set of rear wheels, to eliminate that problem first.
If you do believe there is a pinion angle issue, just get some wedges (moroso make them, try crane/rocket/vpw) and fit them, then take it for a drive. Not a big job, and can be easily done at home in an hour or so.
Good luck.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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But wouldn't doing it that way, w/out taking pinion angle measurement, mean trial and error ?

I am sure it is pinion angle issues because I have had t/shaft balanced, swapped wheels, replaced unis, fitted different t/shafts etc. It is not a major vibration, but enough to chop out the rear g/box seal within a couple of days, and it gives the "thrummm...thrummm" when under load, or over 100k's. It is quite pronounced at 130k's plus.

(Also it didn't do it before I lowered it)

My guess is that its only 1/2 a degree or so out, as you can't hear/feel the vibes on the normal a*** pitch roads, only on smooth hotmix stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:26 pm 
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creeture3 wrote:
But wouldn't doing it that way, w/out taking pinion angle measurement, mean trial and error ?
My guess is that its only 1/2 a degree or so out, as you can't hear/feel the vibes on the normal a*** pitch roads, only on smooth hotmix stuff.


As opposed to putting up with it for 4 years? Sometimes trial & error is the easiest and cheapest way out of these things. Unless you want to buy all the gear yourself to measure the pinion angle, etc, it would be easier to just try it and see.
Most of the wedges you can buy will give you 1 or 2 degrees, so 1/2 a degree is going to be tricky.
Most of the time, a pinion misalignment will cause a vibration on acceleration, or during hard gear changes, more than just at high speeds.
I really think the pinion angle issue may not be the cause of your vibrations. A uni can run at a degree or two of misalignment and not cause a big vibration, are you sure it's not a trans issue? Odd for the rear bush in the box to be chewed up by a misalignment in the rear uni...

By the way, does the tailshaft ever touch the floor of your car? Check the shaft for scratches/grooves that run aroung the shaft, down near the muffler area usually.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:30 pm 
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hey i have an ed wagon with the same springs in it.

i have no issue. but what i think it could be for you is..

1. tyres or rims as stated b4

2. the flange on your diff isnt lined up where it should be so its throwing everything out.

3. bent axel? or worn wheel bearing?

4. unis as said b4

5 gearbox mount or weight on the bottom of the gear box

but tell us a little more about the vibration. is it all the time over 90? dose it go away at 100 for example? is the car auto or manual? show us a photo of how low it sits. what condition are the shocks?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:02 pm 
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something that takes my attention is, you said it chews out rear gear box seal :idea:

i would say more than likely your vibration is from a worn bush in the gearbox extension housing..
jack the car up and see how much the tail shaft end moves in the gearbox.??
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:15 pm 
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Agreed, on it not being the pinion angle. This is not an issue in a Wagon. The sedans however suffer from this a fair bit.

As Troyman has said I would also check out you extension housing bush where the tailshaft yoke goes in. I had that problem in my old sedan, and it cost approx $100 bucks to get it replaced.

If you can move the yoke in the back of the gearbox up and down, then that is the issue.

Ask your local Auto Trans specialist to check it out for you.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Quote:
1. tyres or rims as stated b4

2. the flange on your diff isnt lined up where it should be so its throwing everything out.

3. bent axel? or worn wheel bearing?

4. unis as said b4

5 gearbox mount or weight on the bottom of the gear box

but tell us a little more about the vibration. is it all the time over 90? dose it go away at 100 for example? is the car auto or manual? show us a photo of how low it sits. what condition are the shocks?

Quote:
y the way, does the tailshaft ever touch the floor of your car? Check the shaft for scratches/grooves that run aroung the shaft, down near the muffler area usually.

Quote:
As Troyman has said I would also check out you extension housing bush where the tailshaft yoke goes in. I


1. Tyres/rims new (4 years ago) no curb hits or buckles. Been checked when/as new tyres put on. Wheels rotated, no change

2.Axles/bearings replaced x 2 (both sides) Diff flange never removed, runnout check with dial indicator, within limits.

3. Unis replaced x 2, 1 x me, 1 x pro. shop. Taishaft balanced x 2 Used different tailshaft, same problem

4. g/box mount replaced x 2

5. Tailshaft not touching floor.

6. Extension housing bush changed annually wears not a lot but movement is evident a couple of weeks after replacement

7. rear shocks brand new two weeks ago. (Munroe sports) before that we good.

8. Vibe there all time over 90k's particularly noticeable when towing uphill @ 100k's plus
doesn't go away over that speed, gets worse.

When I replace the extension bush and seal, it is BEAUTIFUL for about a week, then it gradually goes back to its miserable self. :cry:

All the above really make me think it is an alignment issue, as I cannot think of any other reason. :?
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Can you take the rear back up to standard height and see if the problem goes away. May have to replace rear bearing and seal to find out. Sounds like something is out of round and flogging out the bearing.
Is the rear axle centred and not C**k to one side slightly. Get a friend to follow you and see if it crabs.
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:09 pm 
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creeture3 wrote:
When I replace the extension bush and seal, it is BEAUTIFUL for about a week, then it gradually goes back to its miserable self. :cry:


Theres something funky going on here, for it to be chewing out the rear bush so fast. I wonder, could the output shaft in the trans be bent?
I will ask a few people in the know and get back to you on this.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:09 pm 
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if you have tried all the above?? and you still have problems...
i would just put it back to std...

maybe its the springs that are putting the angle out?
are they std with lowering blocks or aftermarket hd??
it shouldnt have that issue, there are alot of lowered wagons and utes that dont have these problems..

how low is your wagon????
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:24 pm 
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OK, I just spoke to a mate who owns a auto trans shop. When I told him what was happening, the first thing he said was "put an earth strap on it", ie an earth strap from the extension housing bolts, across to the body, with enough length to allow for trans movement, and keep it clear of the exhaust and tailshaft. I would do this asap, it wont cost much, and could stop the rear bush dissapearing on an annual basis. You could use an old earth strap from the engine bay of any ford, the wreckers won't want much for that.
Also, does the slip yoke look like it is getting chewed out every time?
Are you using the Ford white metal bush, or the aftermarket brass/bronze bush? Aftermarket is a lot better.
Hope this helps.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:39 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Quote:
OK, I just spoke to a mate who owns a auto trans shop. When I told him what was happening, the first thing he said was "put an earth strap on it", ie an earth strap from the extension housing bolts, across to the body, with enough length to allow for trans movement, and keep it clear of the exhaust and tailshaft. I would do this asap, it wont cost much, and could stop the rear bush dissapearing on an annual basis. You could use an old earth strap from the engine bay of any ford, the wreckers won't want much for that.
Also, does the slip yoke look like it is getting chewed out every time?
Are you using the Ford white metal bush, or the aftermarket brass/bronze bush? Aftermarket is a lot better.
Hope this helps.

Quote:
maybe its the springs that are putting the angle out?
are they std with lowering blocks or aftermarket hd??
it shouldnt have that issue, there are alot of lowered wagons and utes that dont have these problems..

how low is your wagon????




Can you add a bit more info. What will the earth strap do? Does he think electrolysis has something to do with this?? Slip yoke is good, Aftermarket bushes.

Not real low, I can get two fingers between the rear guard and the tyre top.

Aftermarket springs, King leaf. can't remember the part # but could look it up.

It IS possible that the spring diff location pins are out, as I haven't checked this. I might take a measurement this w/end
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Those pins align and centre the rear axle assembly. Make sure they are seated or it will be all over the s**t. I assume they are lowered springs and you are not useing lowering blocks.
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 Post subject: Re: Vibes (long post, sorry)
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:53 pm 
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creeture3 wrote:
Can you add a bit more info. What will the earth strap do? Does he think electrolysis has something to do with this?? Slip yoke is good, Aftermarket bushes.

Not real low, I can get two fingers between the rear guard and the tyre top.

Aftermarket springs, King leaf. can't remember the part # but could look it up.

It IS possible that the spring diff location pins are out, as I haven't checked this. I might take a measurement this w/end


Yeah, it would be a form of electrolysis. The soft bush material will get eaten a lot faster than the hard facing on the slip yoke. If the vibration goes away when you replace the bush, then that must be the issue. Try replacing the bush with the good aftermarket unit, make sure the slip yoke is OK, and still the right size, and fit an earth strap while you are under there. The mate said it was a common issue for him, and he knows what he's doing.

I doubt that the centre pins or the ride height would be an issue. How long did you have/drive the car before you lowered it?

 

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