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wheel alignment - do I have too much caster? 

 

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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:50 pm 
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hans hartman wrote:
nolathane bushes stiffen the front alot

That may be true but the toe is most affected by the tie rod ends and ball joints. The inner bush on the lower control arm would play a role, but the original rubber is pretty stiff too.

Otherwise the inner bushes on the upper control arm would play a minimal role, due to most of the rolling resistance forces going through the lower control arm.

The radius rod bushes despite their flexibility would have a minimal role, because as they flex they merely cause the lower control arm and tie rods to parallelogram (or more so), which would only have a secondary (and minimal) affect on toe.

 

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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:59 pm 
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Brett3158 wrote:
As for my original question "Is my caster too great?" my research suggests that the more positive caster the better as it increases dynamic negative camber, and as Pimp Ltd pointed out it aids in correcting oversteer. Thanks for this most useful discussion guys.

I suggest there's a lot more to think about on this point.

One point is that more castor creates more camber as the wheel is turned. Turn your wheels to full lock and check the camber, it could be more if not much more than 1deg. If you power on at full lock with a lot of camber on the front tyres they will scrub badly.

As a general anecdote, i have often noticed a lot of castor on Mercedes and some other European vehicles, you can see it when they are parked with lock on the wheels. Maybe Germany's autobarns play a role in that decision.

 

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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:26 pm 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
I suggest there's a lot more to think about on this point.

One point is that more castor creates more camber as the wheel is turned. Turn your wheels to full lock and check the camber, it could be more if not much more than 1deg. If you power on at full lock with a lot of camber on the front tyres they will scrub badly.

As a general anecdote, i have often noticed a lot of castor on Mercedes and some other European vehicles, you can see it when they are parked with lock on the wheels. Maybe Germany's autobarns play a role in that decision.


You raise a good point.

As said, there is alot to alignment, and yes with my settings i do have a little tyre scrape on large corrective steering, but not in general driving/parking.

To have settings and handling like this, this is trade-offs, however i got around the scraping by simply flaring my front guards, but i also have 30mm wheel spacers on that car, so itr otherwise probably wouldn't be neccassary.

As for the tyre wear thing, most my daily's have had around 2.5neg camber, 4-5 pos caster, and 0-1mm toe out, and on the average set of tyres that give around 40,000 klms, i still get around 30000. Now considering that most people do around 10000-15000 a year, thats still 2-3 years of tyre life, give or take depending on driving habits of the individual. Plus tyres after this age sometimes get hard/cracked and unsafe anyway.

Anyway, glad you got it sorted Brett3158, hope it goes well man.

Andrew.

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:25 am 
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PIMP_LTD wrote:
As said, there is alot to alignment, and yes with my settings i do have a little tyre scrape on large corrective steering, but not in general driving/parking.

To have settings and handling like this, this is trade-offs, however i got around the scraping by simply flaring my front guards, but i also have 30mm wheel spacers on that car, so itr otherwise probably wouldn't be neccassary.

So you've fitted 30mm hub adapters to stock rims?

Your experience here might help me a bit. I have done some cycling of the front suspension and reckon with modified struts i can fit 225/75R15's on ford 5spoke alloy rims with 28mm hub adapters. After those tyres have worn i'll do some more mods and fit 235/75R15's. One of those mods will probably be to limit the rack, i've never done this. I am also considering flaring the guards, any tips specific to the EB front guards?

Quote:
As for the tyre wear thing, most my daily's have had around 2.5neg camber, 4-5 pos caster, and 0-1mm toe out, and on the average set of tyres that give around 40,000 klms, i still get around 30000. Now considering that most people do around 10000-15000 a year, thats still 2-3 years of tyre life, give or take depending on driving habits of the individual. Plus tyres after this age sometimes get hard/cracked and unsafe anyway.

You've got me thinking about what castor i will go for next, but an explanation for your toe settings would be good.

 

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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Sorry, i should have mentioned that these settings are not on the car in my sig. This is all fitted to another car, and not a ford.

As for the flaring your guards, its pretty much the same from car to car, with slight differences. To do mine (remember another car) i simply used a hammer and dolly kit to close the inner skin aroung the wheel arch into the outside skin, so they are flat together. Then continuing with the hammer and dolly, working from in the wheel arch, i shaped the guard outwards to my desired shape/flare out.

Depending how far you go, it can provide plenty of space for bigger rims, and still stop scrubbing.

If you google guard flaring, you'll find heaps of info and threads on how to do it succesfully. Thats how i learnt.

Andrew.

 

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Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:37 pm 
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PIMP_LTD wrote:
Sorry, i should have mentioned that these settings are not on the car in my sig. This is all fitted to another car, and not a ford.

Uh.


Quote:
As for the flaring your guards, its pretty much the same from car to car, with slight differences. To do mine (remember another car) i simply used a hammer and dolly kit to close the inner skin aroung the wheel arch into the outside skin, so they are flat together. Then continuing with the hammer and dolly, working from in the wheel arch, i shaped the guard outwards to my desired shape/flare out.

Depending how far you go, it can provide plenty of space for bigger rims, and still stop scrubbing.

If you google guard flaring, you'll find heaps of info and threads on how to do it succesfully. Thats how i learnt.

To my thinking, the EB front guard is going to be harder than most because of the shape, being rounded in all directions means you really have to stretch the material to get it out further, plus the existing flare adds to the difficulty.

Thanks for the research idea.

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:57 am 
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relaxed_diplomacy wrote:



To my thinking, the EB front guard is going to be harder than most because of the shape, being rounded in all directions means you really have to stretch the material to get it out further, plus the existing flare adds to the difficulty.

Thanks for the research idea.


If you can get a hold of a f**k guard off someone, just have a go at it.

I've done harder guards than the fords one. :)

 

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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Yes, i do have spare guards, on my wreck :)

One good thing is if you undo the bumper support bracket the front part of the wheel arch can be pulled out easily.

I wonder if heat might be needed though.

 

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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Nah man don't use any heat to assist flaring!!!!

Heat distorts the panel hardcore. For when you do it to your car though, and if no repainting is your aim, run some duct tape around the edge to be changed, and use a hairdryer, just to make the paint softer, so it will crack less.

Otherwise, don't use oxy/propane/any flame torches, thats bad m'kay, lol.

 

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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:28 pm 
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PIMP_LTD wrote:
Nah man don't use any heat to assist flaring!!!!

Heat distorts the panel hardcore. For when you do it to your car though, and if no repainting is your aim, run some duct tape around the edge to be changed, and use a hairdryer, just to make the paint softer, so it will crack less.

Otherwise, don't use oxy/propane/any flame torches, thats bad m'kay, lol.

Okay. So far i've only ever really done a guard re-radius (bend lip down, cut, bend a new lip). I figure a proper guard roller would be desirable, the type that bolts to the hub.

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:26 pm 
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I have a guard roller. They work a treat on the rear guards, but are useless on the front.

The front guards just have too much flex in them, whereas the rears are solid. This is why i shape the fronts myself.

I even made a gurad roller of better design than the ebay ones, still not good on the fronts.

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Here is a couple of pictures of the last set of guards i flared, on my drift car.

This is what they looked like before, note: this is without the 30mm wheel spacers, as they won't fit as is.
Image

This is after using a couple of different dollys, and a copper hammer to shape the guard, and get about 25mm flare.
Image

This is the first layer of bog to smooth it out.
Image

This is second layer of bog.
Image

Unfortunatly i don't have a decent "finished product" photo, as i suck at photography, but this was a real s**t rush job, and it still came up quite good. As i said, this was a rush job, so i had to bog them a bit because it was too impatient to dolly them up neatly. With a little patience, they come up way better than this.

Although, if you want quite a large flare, you may need to use some filler anyway.

Andrew.

 

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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:03 pm 
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Thanks, this is really helpful. Much to absorb.

I can't quite imagine the hammer and dolly type, and technique. Any photo's?

Surely you'd have to be a magician to use a dolly and not have to use bog. Anyway, if you can't use a roller, bog's okay.

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:41 pm 
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It is hard to do with a hammer and dolly and get a neat job, but its do-able.

I learnt that technique from one of my mates who is a panel beater at a shop that does some real nice cars, and they even have contracts with some of the V8 supercar teams. He can do it a bit neater and quicker than i can.

I'm not sure how many more photos i have, i'll look around though. It takes a bit of patience, a carton of beer, and a comfy stool.

I'll tey to find some photos of compressing the inner and outer skins, then the actual dollying to shape.

Andrew.

 

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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:12 pm 
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So what sort of vehicle is that Pimp Ltd?
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