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Xr6 body roll 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:50 pm 
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low_ryda wrote:
going stiffer is not gunna solve your problem, my ea is almost rigid in the back end and will oversteer under 0 throttle. pre irs falcons are renouned for having traction problems, they have a 4 link, better suited to drag racing with a castor adjustment. particularly pre ef which some people acount to setup, but i believe it's a weight thing to. my ea only weighs 1385 which as far as i know one of the lightest falcons ever made. that doesn't help traction.
my bf weighs bit under 1600 i think (also has irs though) and in the dry it has awsome tractability but in the wet when told to it can also be quite the wheelspin machine. the softer (xr harder than stock) suspension does actually help though.

yeah, stiffer will just get rid of the roll, it will still spin out. If the back is stiffer, this will just make the front handle better becuase a softer rear end (relative to the front) will create less oversteer. The only solution ive seen for the back was whiteline modified upper trailing arms, which mount lower on the axle. But apparantly they don't make them anymore. I guess the only thing to get rid of the roll would be some stiffer sway bars front and rear, so it should handle simmilair with less roll.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:27 pm 
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SpeedyED wrote:
How do I compare? Just get a Nolathane Bush and a Super Pro Bush and let em sit in the weather for a year and then compare?


I worked in the business for 20yrs, and have used the different products myself. I have found the Nolathane and Pedders products after about 2yrs turn to dust and crumble.
I remember replacing lower control arm inner bushes on the front of EF XR6 cop cars under warranty. They were red urethane bushes, don't know who supplied Ford with them, but they were crap too.
The SuperPro bushes are better designed, better product used to make them.
I have even bought SuperPro round stock to make suspension bushes for vehicles that no longer have parts available for them.
My 2 cents.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:18 am 
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cjh wrote:
SpeedyED wrote:
How do I compare? Just get a Nolathane Bush and a Super Pro Bush and let em sit in the weather for a year and then compare?


I worked in the business for 20yrs, and have used the different products myself. I have found the Nolathane and Pedders products after about 2yrs turn to dust and crumble.
I remember replacing lower control arm inner bushes on the front of EF XR6 cop cars under warranty. They were red urethane bushes, don't know who supplied Ford with them, but they were crap too.
The SuperPro bushes are better designed, better product used to make them.
I have even bought SuperPro round stock to make suspension bushes for vehicles that no longer have parts available for them.
My 2 cents.


I agree entirely with cjh here - I've had Nolathane bushes completely disintegrate - in fact when I think about it I have to say EVERY Nolathane bush I've ever fitted has fallen apart - but Superpro ones keep on going and going.

On the subject of the original post..... I've recently retired my old ED Futura which if I had to admit had any flaw with it's handling - used to suffer to some degree from similar situation as described (roundabouts very clearly provoked it) - at higher speed it actually wasn't so bad - probably because of the springs being loaded up more - read on.....

I always put it down to crap tyres. BUT: My new ride is an EF GLi - I've transplanted the cam, front sway bar and Bilsteins all round but only changed over the front King springs. I'm keeping the ride height standard - so left the original rear springs in place and reset the front spring seat to the middle groove. In short I'm hugely impressed with how much better the rear of this EF feels - I always felt with the King springs in the ED that the rear felt excessively squashy - don't get me wrong, the ED handled fantastic but on balance the rear always felt kind of doughy and at lower speed in tight bends and on roundabouts I always had to be real careful. It also suffered real badly from a lot of weight inasmuchas it would sag deeply - but it always felt better that way for general handling - for a good drive I would always make sure the tank was full and used to half heartedly think about putting sandbags in the boot. Was always something I meant to address but overall handling was so good I never quite got annoyed enough to chase it. This EF even tho it's at std height and has std springs in the rear outhandles the old ED quite comfortably - which is saying A LOT!!!

My point is that after seeing this thread and my recent experience with the EF I think perhaps trying different rear springs might well be worth while. I do recall always thinking the King lowered rear springs looked and felt quite soft. At one point I used Lovell (Whiteline) lowered springs but I can't recall whether they felt firmer than the Kings - they were only in the car a short while as part of a desperate (failed) attempt to make the Konis handle decently.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Greenmachine wrote:
for a good drive I would always make sure the tank was full and used to half heartedly think about putting sandbags in the boot. Was always something I meant to address but overall handling was so good I never quite got annoyed enough to chase it .


Well I have to agree with this. I filled up with a full tank and the car handled pretty much spot on. I'd taken the spare out of the car for a while, so i think after driving with it in this helps a bit as well. Still, you can tell the roll rate of the back can't realy keep up with the front, especially on higher speed corners.
Now the EF-AU xr6's have the same rear suspension (as far as i can tell) as an ed xr6, except the fact they have a lowered watt's link pivot point on the dif. So would there be a way to lower this on an ed? never heard about this being done before but still:P.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:11 pm 
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you can fit the EL diff hat to lower the roll centre.
it's just difficult finding someone that will seperate it.
i've always wanted to try it myself.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:00 pm 
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I had an EL Diff cover fitted to my ED - I can't say I noticed any radical changes.

Something odd - the other day I was watching V8 Supercar racing and one of the commentators said that lowering the roll centre "softens" the rear and raising it does the opposite. That's contrary to what I thought - I'll have to do some research I think.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:28 pm 
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pretty sure the only difference is in the links, which is effectively castor adjustment ? adjustable links would ultimately solve this problem i feel. i'm considering fabricating some, just keen for more information regarding the outcome... would my local pedders be able to tune it ?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:57 pm 
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I haven't finished swapping over all the suspension from the ol EA to the ED yet, but have swapped over the Pedders GSR shockies, EL XR6 springs, 30mm front bar, 27mm rear bar, all the arms on the front ( fitted with SuperPro bushes ).
I haven't done the rear trailing arms as the ED and EA ones are different.
I have noticed the ED is more " rolly" ( for want of a better term/word ), than the EA was in the rear, but in saying that, the EA had a harsher ride than the ED......may be weight related?????

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:59 pm 
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low_ryda are you talking about control arms or the watts link?

the watts link mount on the EL diff hat is phsyically lower, I've had them side by side.
the links are no different.
adjustable length watts links would be utterly useless.
If you can adjust the height of the mount/mounts, ala v8 supercar, you have an adjustable roll centre.

not sure what you mean by castor in relation to a live axle rear end?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:17 pm 
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no the control arms i mean. i thought the el had different mounting points on the diff and different length lower arms.

caster angle is the angular offset of the mountings from the vertical axis of the diff.
jmm done some mock up bout castor adjustment on one of their 'mild' n/a eas doing 13's heavilly contributing to their control arm length adjustment. (improved traction on launch) obviously this 'launch' setup would compromise the high speed handling of the car though.but all acheivable through adjustment.

the adjustable watts link is on the list :P one day... lol

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:41 pm 
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ahh i get what you mean now, i've done a little bit of reading on instant centres in relation to straightline traction, but i am nowhere near understanding it all, and i have NFI on effects in regards to roll steer lol
theres alot of programs out there to help you calculate the length and angle of 4 links and the effects changes will make though, would definately be worth a play with if you are going to make adjustable arms.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:55 pm 
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definately, got any links to those sort sites ? would be handy.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:03 am 
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heres an online one I just found on google searching "instant centre calculator"

http://mysite.verizon.net/triaged/4link ... index.html
seems to be designed for 4x4, but i can't see why it wouldn't work

or this one from performancetrends which i've seen before
http://performancetrends.com/4link.htm
it only deals with the straightline aspect of it though..

they also do a "suspension analyzer" program, which looks way way out of my league LOL

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Steady ED wrote:

not sure what you mean by castor in relation to a live axle rear end?


Its not really castor, but pinion angle in relation to the trailing arms angles and mounting locations.
It gets involved when your looking for the right set up for what your doing.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Xr6 body roll
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:56 am 
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Whiteline adjustable sway bar will also teach your loose rear end to tighten up.

Nobody likes a loose rear end. Whiteline make a good bar, just put it on the heaviest setting and she will be happy, also sounds like if you have a LSD it may be worn, lights up a wheel then the cones come in and try and drive both once slip has already occured.

 

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