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EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept] 

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:47 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Ride: Ford Territory and Falcon RTV

Location: None of your business
NSW, Australia

relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....Okay, so, since i am considering creating a raised large-wheel BA wagon, i need to decide whether i go 2wd or 4wd, and go from there. Either way i need to accomodate big wheels without creating ball joint clearance or offset problems.
...


Glad to help :D

I like your determination and can do attitude but I really don't think you'll fit your proposed 32.5" (33"?) wheel/tyre combo with a moderate lift without addressing ball joint/offset/bodywork issues.

If going BA I'd just use the RTV setup complete (spring hangers modified in the rear to suit a wagon bodyshell, they differ to the cab-chassis utes) and forget AWD/4WD, just fit the rear locker. The AU-BA/F spindles cause less interference issues than the E-series spindles you'd be familiar with but you'll still require offset changes to get around them.

This creates the next obstacle which will be the bodywork. The raised AU ute of the Uteman known as the 'Mongrel' that was a prototype for the RTV, and I little wilder than the production items, only ever had 235/65/17 and later 255/60/17 (both measure in at 29") and they seemed to fill the wheelwells. Also note that AU has bigger wheel openings than the BA. This ran more offet than the production Falcons to allow these to clear the balljoint.

Territory components would allow up to 30" tyres before you need additional offset for clearance but that will be on a wider track to begin with and cause even more bodywork headaches and offer less ground clearance under the front subframe. It's not as simple as a direct bolt-in either. Whilst the frame rails are the same size and in the same location the pins/dowels/studs that allow it to all come togther are located differently. There may also be issues mating a Falcon (rear steer) to the Territory (front steer) in a Falcon bodyshell, though the reverse is clearly possible in a Territory (eg. Capa and FTG V8's).

I'll watch this thread with interest :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:12 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
VIC, Australia

*Raptor* wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....Okay, so, since i am considering creating a raised large-wheel BA wagon, i need to decide whether i go 2wd or 4wd, and go from there. Either way i need to accomodate big wheels without creating ball joint clearance or offset problems.
...


Glad to help :D

I like your determination and can do attitude but I really don't think you'll fit your proposed 32.5" (33"?) wheel/tyre combo with a moderate lift without addressing ball joint/offset/bodywork issues.

If going BA I'd just use the RTV setup complete (spring hangers modified in the rear to suit a wagon bodyshell, they differ to the cab-chassis utes) and forget AWD/4WD, just fit the rear locker. The AU-BA/F spindles cause less interference issues than the E-series spindles you'd be familiar with but you'll still require offset changes to get around them.

Would going RTV mean welding the "drop brackets" onto the BA chassis, in order to refit the A-arms lower?
Since i only want 40mm lift, wouldn't it be less work to just space down the existing coil over, as long as the lower A-arm doesn't develop too much angle?
Or is there good reason to go RTV and then lower it?
If too much offset was needed there might still be the option of lengthening the spindle and using std upper A-arm with RTV lower arm arrangement?

My fingers were crossed that the BA spindle would provide better clearance . . . good news!


Quote:
This creates the next obstacle which will be the bodywork. The raised AU ute of the Uteman known as the 'Mongrel' that was a prototype for the RTV, and I little wilder than the production items, only ever had 235/65/17 and later 255/60/17 (both measure in at 29") and they seemed to fill the wheelwells. Also note that AU has bigger wheel openings than the BA. This ran more offet than the production Falcons to allow these to clear the balljoint.

I've had a bit of practice at gaining wheel clearance, but figure i'm talking a serious job to fit 275/60R20's. If i used RTV front suspension it would probably help out with regards to wheel well clearance. Either way i would need to chop the guards and fit flares, or possibly get some serious panel-flaring done? Unfortunately RTV flares would be too small.

Quote:
Territory components would allow up to 30" tyres before you need additional offset for clearance but that will be on a wider track to begin with and cause even more bodywork headaches and offer less ground clearance under the front subframe. It's not as simple as a direct bolt-in either. Whilst the frame rails are the same size and in the same location the pins/dowels/studs that allow it to all come togther are located differently. There may also be issues mating a Falcon (rear steer) to the Territory (front steer) in a Falcon bodyshell, though the reverse is clearly possible in a Territory (eg. Capa and FTG V8's).

To create a 4wd BA wagon, sounds like one would want a big garage, one unregistered BA wagon, one write-off terri, and heaps of time and money.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:25 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
VIC, Australia

Further to my previous post, when i wrote it i wasn't thinking about the extra track of the RTV front, which would be a bonus. But i would want to lower it, because the RTV already has enough ground clearance, and adding another chunk through bigger wheel O.D. would end up too much.

standard 215/60R16 = 663mm O.D. (radius 331mm)
concept 275/60R20 = 811mm O.D. (radius 405mm)
Lift (405 - 331) = 64mm

My EL has about 70mm lift and i would want another say 25mm for the wagon, that means i would want a total of 95mm raised. So i would want a 30mm suspension lift over standard.

Or if i used RTV components . . .

RTV 215/65R16 = 691mm O.D (radius 345mm)
Lift through tyres = 14mm
Total lift = 80mm
Therefore lift through suspension = 66mm

I would need to lower it 36mm.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:09 am 
Getting Side Ways
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I have a genuine E series sump guard from my EF for sale if you need one.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:29 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Joined: 16th Feb 2010

Ride: Ford Territory and Falcon RTV

Location: None of your business
NSW, Australia

relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
Would going RTV mean welding the "drop brackets" onto the BA chassis, in order to refit the A-arms lower?....

Almost certain they bolt in. Stick your head under the next (parked) RTV you come across and have a look.

relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
Since i only want 40mm lift, wouldn't it be less work to just space down the existing coil over, as long as the lower A-arm doesn't develop too much angle? Or is there good reason to go RTV and then lower it?....

The RTV is done that way to maintain geometry, roll centres/roll axis etc. Ford engineers talk about bringing the 'Adams' curves back to near standard. Adams is a software program they use. If fitting RTV component I'd leave them at factory height even though overall the car will end up higher.

Unless your prepared for major bodywork surgery I think you need to think about where the top of your tyre will be as well. From your figures above 215/60/16 vs 275/60/20 is a 64mm increase in radius from the standard tyre. A suspension lift of only 30mm will therefore leave the top of the tyre tucked 34mm further into the guard than standard - as if the car was lowered. Start flexing the suspension and in 'bump' you may well run out of upward clearance.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:23 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Age: 42

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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
VIC, Australia

*Raptor* wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
Would going RTV mean welding the "drop brackets" onto the BA chassis, in order to refit the A-arms lower?....

Almost certain they bolt in. Stick your head under the next (parked) RTV you come across and have a look.

If that is the case that is a massive bonus.

Quote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
Since i only want 40mm lift, wouldn't it be less work to just space down the existing coil over, as long as the lower A-arm doesn't develop too much angle? Or is there good reason to go RTV and then lower it?....

The RTV is done that way to maintain geometry, roll centres/roll axis etc. Ford engineers talk about bringing the 'Adams' curves back to near standard. Adams is a software program they use. If fitting RTV component I'd leave them at factory height even though overall the car will end up higher.

I totally see where you're coming from, but i've played around with suspension heights and had no real problems. If i added the big wheels to RTV spec it would add another 60mm . . . s**t, that would be high.

Quote:
Unless your prepared for major bodywork surgery I think you need to think about where the top of your tyre will be as well. From your figures above 215/60/16 vs 275/60/20 is a 64mm increase in radius from the standard tyre. A suspension lift of only 30mm will therefore leave the top of the tyre tucked 34mm further into the guard than standard - as if the car was lowered. Start flexing the suspension and in 'bump' you may well run out of upward clearance.

Definitely, upwards clearance would be a massive issue, and it would all be a lot easier if i used RTV spec. But if i am going to go this far i may as well do things how i want, unless laws or costs make it out of the question. Major bodywork surgery to allow extra upward clearance is worth it to me to keep corning abilities decent (low cog).


Another issue to think about is the wheel bearings. 811mm O.D. wheels will put about 17% more leverage on the bearings during cornering.

And offset may also be a difficult problem with the law. How easy would it be to get 20 x 9.5" rims for a falcon? Maybe i would have to get expensive two-piece rims with adjustable offset?

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:13 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Posts: 42

Joined: 16th Feb 2010

Ride: Ford Territory and Falcon RTV

Location: None of your business
NSW, Australia

relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
And offset may also be a difficult problem with the law. How easy would it be to get 20 x 9.5" rims for a falcon? Maybe i would have to get expensive two-piece rims with adjustable offset?


Yes, I imagaine offset will be an issue re legality. But aren't your current spacers too?

20x9.5" shouldn't be too hard to come across.

Though keep in mind that most blinged up Territorys on the road have high load rated 20x8.5" rims and 275/40/20 tyres (which are within the +15mm diameter, no RTA notification or engineer involvement allowance). So you may not need a 9.5" rim for 275/60 especially considering the extra sidewall height.

Cheers, Rob
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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:53 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Age: 42

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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
VIC, Australia

*Raptor* wrote:
relaxed_diplomacy wrote:
....
And offset may also be a difficult problem with the law. How easy would it be to get 20 x 9.5" rims for a falcon? Maybe i would have to get expensive two-piece rims with adjustable offset?


Yes, I imagaine offset will be an issue re legality. But aren't your current spacers too?

The BA concept would be very noticeable . . . i can't help but think i ought to get it engineered because spacers can easily be detected if i cause an accident? Especially visible with 20" rims! (depending on style though). Although if i used pre-AU offset i don't think anyone would pick that, the only issues then would be if they create too much offset, or if i can't get a 20" in that offset?

Quote:
20x9.5" shouldn't be too hard to come across.

Okay, good.

Quote:
Though keep in mind that most blinged up Territorys on the road have high load rated 20x8.5" rims and 275/40/20 tyres (which are within the +15mm diameter, no RTA notification or engineer involvement allowance). So you may not need a 9.5" rim for 275/60 especially considering the extra sidewall height.

Yes, i'm just hoping to make it good on road as well as off. I don't tend to damage sidewalls and i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort to make sure it corners well. My 235 rear tyres on 7" rims can get sloppy during heavy cornering, and a 275 being 40mm wider, on 8.5" rims being 38mm wider, would be too similar. Although i would be dropping the series from 75 to 60, the vehicle would be higher.

 

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Last edited by relaxed_diplomacy on Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:28 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
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Recent pics . . .

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Hi, I am interested in what you have done to this car. I have an eb11 wagon that I am wanting to set up to tow our camper and I want it to be able to handle dirt roads well and to be able to get us to some decent camping spots. It already sits high at the back, and I have purchased some raised King Springs for the front which I will fit soon. I am interested in the tallest tyre I can fit without resorting to wheel spacers. I am currently running snowflake rims. I would also love to find out more about the strut spacers you are using. Did you fabricate these yourself of were they off the shelf.

I am thinking of removing the botom inch and a half of the front bumper, but am really just wanting something that would serve as a good tourer. Any info appreciated.
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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:40 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Location: central west nsw
NSW, Australia

im loving this thread. good work! have you had to get some sort of speedo correction device since using the larger rolling diameter tyres?
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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:49 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
VIC, Australia

Hope you're still around, i've been away for a little while.

griffdog wrote:
Hi, I am interested in what you have done to this car. I have an eb11 wagon that I am wanting to set up to tow our camper and I want it to be able to handle dirt roads well and to be able to get us to some decent camping spots.

It already sits high at the back,

Is the rear suspension modified?

Quote:
and I have purchased some raised King Springs for the front which I will fit soon.

Do you have extra weight on the front? If so the coils should be good. If not raised coils have the disadvantage that you have less droop travel, your suspension can crash over deep potholes, but you should still be okay in a falcon.

I imagine they are an increased spring rate? Maybe 15%? That may be good under braking with the camper. But if there is no extra weight on the front you will have less suspension flex. NVH will be higher too.

Quote:
I am interested in the tallest tyre I can fit without resorting to wheel spacers. I am currently running snowflake rims.

Very good question. It quickly gets complex, but it's all good. What i can say is that i ran 205/75 tyres on EF/EL 15" steel wheels, and they just fitted. I had two different tyre brands and one was well clear but the other skimmed slightly under extreme circumstances, but there was no damage, i only know because the steel edge near the balljoint had signs of very minor rubbing. I have since ground back a bit of the metal off the edge which gives better clearance and is fine structurally. So you can grind a bit off, make it smooth, and you'll do better.

Another major factor is your snowflake rims most likely have 5 to 10mm more offset than the steelies. So i can say pretty confidently that you could fit 205/75R15 tyres and have no clearance problems. If you want to try for bigger you would consider trying a 215/75R15. I often source secondhand tyres for this purpose, but keep in mind a new tyre has more tread.

Quote:
I would also love to find out more about the strut spacers you are using. Did you fabricate these yourself of were they off the shelf.

I made them myself. The central hole is 75mm from memory, and the outside is also a common hole saw size, if you have a slow enough drill press. Otherwise you can make the holes other ways. The best idea these days is to use plastic bread boards, secondhand is usually okay, maybe try an op-shop. Or just retire your kitchen ones. Or even buy new ones. If you can't get the thickness you need you might be able to plane them down with an electric planer. I used aluminium but it's more of a hassle than plastic would be.

The next factor to consider is how much you want to raise the front, and whether you are within reasonable limits. Also note that due to the lever ratio of the lower suspension arm the spacers needs to be proportionately less than the amount you want to raise the car. Then if your spacer is over about 8mm thick you will need to remove the studs from the top plate and weld in new longer high tensile coa_rse thread bolts. For your information my car has 13mm of front spacers.

There may be more things to consider, and when you're finished you'll need to get a wheel alignment.

Quote:
I am thinking of removing the botom inch and a half of the front bumper, but am really just wanting something that would serve as a good tourer. Any info appreciated.

I considered that with my EBII (before the EL i had an EBII sedan) but i didn't end up doing anything because the lower bumper flexes quite a lot, although mine may not have been attached at the bottom as fully as they are from factory.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:13 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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rumble wrote:
im loving this thread. good work! have you had to get some sort of speedo correction device since using the larger rolling diameter tyres?

Legally i should, but i'm used to just making my own correction factor, for example 100km/h real speed equals about 90 on my speedo, and 60km/h real speed equals about 55 on my speedo.

But no-one else tends to drive my cars. You don't want to put anyone at risk.

Speedo correction is readily available for falcons and there are blokes on this forum that would help anyone do it.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:26 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL fairmont offroader

Location: seaspray
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Last night coming home i had driven along some mild dirt road then when back on the bitumen the car was pulling to the left. I wondered why. It got worse. Then the front tyre blew out. I figure it developed a leak and then as the tyre deflated it provided more drag on the steering, and the sidewall got hot from all the flexing and blew. Now i don't have much in the way of big front tyres, as the other tyre has bugger all tread.

But i do have some 31x10.5R15 yokohama super diggers hanging around . . . so i'm thinking i might lift the suspension another 15mm and fit the current rear tyres to the front, and fit my 30mm hub adapters and the 31" tyres to the back. I need to fit the hub adapters to gain clearance from the fuel tank and wheel wells, and possibly other things. I'm not sure at this stage whether they will be enough to fully clear the tank.

The rear guards will definitely have to get seriously modified, plus the rear bumper. The rear of the car especially will look very 'horny', very chunky, meaty. Shame about the gearing.

I'm about to move house so this won't happen for a few weeks, for now i'm back to small front wheels and headlights pointing at the ground! Either that or go small all round for the time being. Probably should go the latter because the brake balance and ABS becomes out of whack, and braking distances get longer.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL Fairmont Offroader [& BA wagon offroader concept]
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:53 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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Haha! That would be a sight.

Got a picture?

 

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