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EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings 

 

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 Post subject: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:44 am 
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Hey all,
Got an EF that I suspect has dropped some gas after 6 years under a tree.
I've got gauges and hoses for R-134a fittings but they don't fit the Falcon.
The gauges have 3/8"/M and the hose ends are 1/4"/F Pin-press.

Can anyone tell me what the fittings on the EF are called? The high side is a bit bigger than the low side IIRC.
Any idea if I can get a pair of adapters to mate to the 1/4" R-134a hose ends?

If it's low.. Yes I'm going to use Hychill (aka barby gas :) ).. but getting gas into it is a problem for later.
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Hey man, pretty sure the car A/C fittings are pretty standard sized, I got mine from Heatcraft but Actrol would sell em aswell, there should be one or the other in Bendigo. Just ask em for car A/C fittings to suit R134a, when i got mine he wasnt sure if they cost $20 or $120 so he only charged me $20 but im not sure of the actual cost, I have only used them on an EF Falcon and a 1990 model Honda Civic and had no trouble with either so you should be pretty right.
Good luck with it mate, hope theres not to much wrong

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Have you done a performance test ?? And what are your findings ??
Is Hychill compatible with the SP10 oil ??
A car of that age will need evacuation and a receiver/drier replace.
Other components aside - the compressor front shaft seal due to non use will most likely be leaking - probably not much, be will get worse over time.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:47 am 
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user272:
Thanks for the input, they don't seem to be standard R134a size but if you reckon they're common enough.. the rough $$ figure helps too.

snap0964:
Not enough pressure to run a test, low-pressure cutoff's are open circuit.
Yeah Hychill is compatible with both PAG (eg Sanden SP10) and mineral-based oils.
The receiver was done probably 10 years ago.
Hmm thanks for the tip, not good news if the compressor shaft seals are leaking. Are replacement seals available aftermarket?

If I move to a hydrocarbon refrigerant then I can just top it up over time to keep pressures correct as it leaks. Then I don't have the whole environmental global-warming issue of a HCFC's.
The main reason (apart from air/moisture in the system) "top-ups' are frowned upon is it doesn't address why it leaked to begin with. With CFC/HFCF's leaks are ecologically "evil", and must be rectified before any recharge.
With HC refrig, a bit of leaked propane/butane isn't going to do squat to the atmosphere, and it'll be too small a leak to be a fire hazard.

Plus, HC refrig puts less stress on the compressor, leaks slower, and runs an outlet temp a few degrees cooler.. so it's win all round really.

I just have to rig up a vacuum pump to vac the system out. I'll give it a flush with solvent too and drain the compressor.. get rid of that nasty PAG oil. It's really hygroscopic, and forms strong acids with moisture eating out the aluminium. Swap in some mineral oil or maybe a PAO oil if I can get some cheap.
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:16 pm 
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benryanau wrote:
not good news if the compressor shaft seals are leaking. Are replacement seals available aftermarket?
Yeah, they are - pretty expensive in Aust though. http://speedyairspares.com.au/products/ ... 1-188.html have them. I got mine from these guys http://www.polarbearinc.com/PBPC/Homepa ... tml#Anchor SS0847 & SS0858 . Great to deal with - good email communication too. Takes about 1.5 weeks delivery - check out their oils too. Most A/C places here will sell you a compressor for $450-$700, just complete units.

Your compressor should be a Sanden TRS105. Provided it's had decent gas to keep lubed when running, internals should be okay - just put a finger over the suction and pressure ports and make sure you have a decent amount of each on 2 turns of the clutch. Scroll compressors are pretty basic. Don't dismantle the casing if you can help it - it's easy to disturb the scrolls clearance.

You'll need to remove all the front hardware to get to the seal - only special tools is a circlip pliers. Soft faced hammer to tap the pulley off. The front bearing is a common one and quite cheap - note the part no off the ball race seal - I got mine for $5 each from an engineering mob. You'll need to destroy the existing bearing to get it out - I used a dremel with an abrasive cutting disc to carefully cut it up (a few hours work) - the internal race will just slide off the shaft once the balls are free - cover the compressor with a rag, and clean the seal area well (metho/cotton wool buds) before pulling it out. Chances are the felt disc is oil soaked - meaning the seal is leaking, if not, it hasn't, but will eventually - remove the circlip, to pull the seal, needle nose pliers with steps ground in the tips. You can then rotate the shaft and check the main bearing for excessive play/roughness, etc. Take care not to nick the shaft or bore, as you'll need to keep the seal in, dress that damage up, clean and then remove the seal.

The shaft seal wear is a big problem over time, but add to that the hydroscopic oil as you noted, causes pitting on the shaft under that wear, so simply replacing the seal will most likely leak again within 12 mths.

I used std galvanised washers - ground the external to fit down the bore, grind internal so not to foul shaft - was 1.6 mm thick - so ran the front edge of the seal on a sharpening stone (a few hours work), vernier check for thickness to bring down by 1.6mm - this will take off the pull tabs, and the front ring might possibly come free - once in, the circlip will hold this down - the seal is bonded to the outer ring. You seal is then 'shimmed' further up the shaft on a fresh new section.

Most important is you prep the seal for fitment - simply pressing it down the shaft lip first, will destroy it. You'll need some heatshrink shrunk down on that front shaft section, so there's no step edge for the seal to run over. Lube with compressor oil.

I'd recommend getting a dead compressor for nothing, and get the front shaft - EA-EL are the same, it's only the housing that varies for the belt arrangement. Put your heatshrink on and shrink, lube with oil, and press the seal on the shaft front edge first(where the pull tabs were), wiggle slightly to work the seal. Then you can put your heatshrink on the compressor shaft, lube and carefully press the seal lip side down the shaft and bore, and circlip it in.

The pulley bearing will be dry too I'd guess - you can buy new ones, but they are a PITA to remove and install. Check your existing bearing for play/roughness - carefully remove the seals with instrument screwdrivers, put a smear of HT bearing bearing grease, carefully press the seals back in. I actually worked grease through the bearing - too much, needed to take the clutch off and clean the area weekly, the grease flinging sorted itself out after a fortnight.

I got a green O ring assortment kit from Burson's for $27 all you'll ever need. Receiver/Drier http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261061393390 ... 1438.l2649 .
I have 3 cars to service the A/C systems - one with shaft seal leak, another with condensor leak.
I'd go broke buying 3 new compressors - I repaired the shaft seal leak one 4 mths ago - so good to have proper A/C these summer months - those that reckon they can just wind down the window and be comfortable are kidding themselves.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:57 am 
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Thanks for the bloody detailed info mate.. a candiate for a tech doc!
It's 50/50 whether I'll do it or not, esp given the work involved.. might just be easier to swap to Hychill and take the lazy way out, top up when it gets low.. not like it's HCFC's so no real problems there.
Now, for the fittings to make it all work..
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:34 am 
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I'd say fix it properly - you'll have a system that'll work at 100%, no need to continually top up.

I did ponder whether to do the write up - most people would go it's too hard, when all you need is a bit of perseverance.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Yeah I'll see if I can find the actual leak, hopefully that UV dye will show something.
I don't like hack jobs either but if I can't locate the leak I'm not going to reco every seal if it's just a slow leak.

Seriously you should format the post with a few service manual pics (I've got the factory manuals if you need some scans) and submit it as a tech doc.. it's detailed enough!
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:48 pm 
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benryanau wrote:
Seriously you should format the post with a few service manual pics (I've got the factory manuals if you need some scans) and submit it as a tech doc.. it's detailed enough!
Well I have a few docos published here, but there's no specific moderator here who looks after them any more - and in the past, it was pretty painful to continually keep badgering people to get them posted.
benryanau wrote:
I don't like hack jobs either but if I can't locate the leak I'm not going to reco every seal if it's just a slow leak.!
There's really only the compressor front seal - the rest are mainly O rings.
Best way is to possibly get some old flex lines and cut them up to use as adaptors, and seal particular areas and put some compressed air in (not too much) to leak check zones - better way than vacuum IMO. A/C places use nitrogen, but if you're going to flush the system of old oil, shouldn't be an issue I'd think.
Favourite area in the Falcons is the passenger side of the condensor - any grunge/residue is a big giveaway.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:56 am 
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Ahh I see.
I've asked about a wiki (I've installed and maintained them before, all I need is the server installed) which would be great for all kinds of tips, better than techdocs as they can be community developed..
How awesome would it be to have a wiki with a page for each aspect of J3 chip tuning - tables of what people run, what the spark limits are for each model, precisely tuned VE tables people have dynoe'd for their particular engines.. all kinds of s**t.
And I'd be happy to admin, wiki's are self-managing anyhow.

Anyway, yep I meant the O rings, I've done a full re-ring job in an EL with climate and I'm not in a hurry to do that again.
I could use barby gas as a leak finder, the mercaptans make leaks easy to sniff out.. and leak detectors for lp/nat gas (or any volatile/gaseous hydrocarbon for that matter) are cheap as chips to buy.
Thanks for the tip, since it's an XR I'll have to pull the bumper off and have a squiz.. not too hard though.

Also do you know offhand what service port fittings are on VL-VS era Commodores? I've got a mate I think has some refrig gear he got for his Commies but I lost his number. If I can get some cheap adapters to fit up to his gear I'll be laughing..
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:38 pm 
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benryanau wrote:
Ahh I see.
I've asked about a wiki (I've installed and maintained them before, all I need is the server installed) which would be great for all kinds of tips, better than techdocs as they can be community developed..
How awesome would it be to have a wiki with a page for each aspect of J3 chip tuning - tables of what people run, what the spark limits are for each model, precisely tuned VE tables people have dynoe'd for their particular engines.. all kinds of s**t.
And I'd be happy to admin, wiki's are self-managing anyhow
Just getting into J3 programming, so yeah, that would be handy.
benryanau wrote:
I could use barby gas as a leak finder, the mercaptans make leaks easy to sniff out.. and leak detectors for lp/nat gas (or any volatile/gaseous hydrocarbon for that matter) are cheap as chips to buy.
Be most likely much cheaper than an R134 sniffer.
benryanau wrote:
Also do you know offhand what service port fittings are on VL-VS era Commodores? I've got a mate I think has some refrig gear he got for his Commies but I lost his number. If I can get some cheap adapters to fit up to his gear I'll be laughing..
Nah, no idea Dude, wouldn't be greatly different you'd think - check a few out at the wreckers maybe.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Yeah I might persist with the wiki idea. I used to have all the infrastructure to host any service at all but since I closed the company I'm back to home ADSL, no servers or domains for me.
So maybe I can get the FM guys to consider it. Otherwise I'll take it to another Ford site (boostedfalcon, fordforums, etc).

The J3 stuff is a bit daunting, and you really need a WBO2 logger to make the best from it.
The hard part is you're flying blind with little to no frame of reference regarding how much to tweak etc. And everyone that tunes with a J3 has to learn the same lessons everyone else did, the hard way.
If we could share the info, get some good rpimers, guides, and collaborate on what makes the best tune etc we'd be laughing.

Anyway. Yep bugger the HCFC sniffer, they're stupid dear. I'll check at the wreckers to find out what ports the holdens run.
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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:30 pm 
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I'm not sure how you'd go.
Jason (Galapagos1 here) of TI Performance has opened a lot with J3 tuning with the E series.
His products aren't too bad priced.
His site does have a lot of resources, but as you say, no definitive thing - you need to read a lot of bits and pieces and try to put them all together.
There is a large post covering this area, but not much in terms of actual data/figures as to what people have done tweaking wise.
Other thing is it may take business away from supplying custom tunes, so he probably won't be overassisting to see it happen.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:10 pm 
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snap0964 wrote:
benryanau wrote:
not good news if the compressor shaft seals are leaking. Are replacement seals available aftermarket?
Yeah, they are - pretty expensive in Aust though. http://speedyairspares.com.au/products/ ... 1-188.html have them. I got mine from these guys http://www.polarbearinc.com/PBPC/Homepa ... tml#Anchor SS0847 & SS0858 . Great to deal with - good email communication too. Takes about 1.5 weeks delivery - check out their oils too. Most A/C places here will sell you a compressor for $450-$700, just complete units.

Your compressor should be a Sanden TRS105. Provided it's had decent gas to keep lubed when running, internals should be okay - just put a finger over the suction and pressure ports and make sure you have a decent amount of each on 2 turns of the clutch. Scroll compressors are pretty basic. Don't dismantle the casing if you can help it - it's easy to disturb the scrolls clearance.

You'll need to remove all the front hardware to get to the seal - only special tools is a circlip pliers. Soft faced hammer to tap the pulley off. The front bearing is a common one and quite cheap - note the part no off the ball race seal - I got mine for $5 each from an engineering mob. You'll need to destroy the existing bearing to get it out - I used a dremel with an abrasive cutting disc to carefully cut it up (a few hours work) - the internal race will just slide off the shaft once the balls are free - cover the compressor with a rag, and clean the seal area well (metho/cotton wool buds) before pulling it out. Chances are the felt disc is oil soaked - meaning the seal is leaking, if not, it hasn't, but will eventually - remove the circlip, to pull the seal, needle nose pliers with steps ground in the tips. You can then rotate the shaft and check the main bearing for excessive play/roughness, etc. Take care not to nick the shaft or bore, as you'll need to keep the seal in, dress that damage up, clean and then remove the seal.

The shaft seal wear is a big problem over time, but add to that the hydroscopic oil as you noted, causes pitting on the shaft under that wear, so simply replacing the seal will most likely leak again within 12 mths.

I used std galvanised washers - ground the external to fit down the bore, grind internal so not to foul shaft - was 1.6 mm thick - so ran the front edge of the seal on a sharpening stone (a few hours work), vernier check for thickness to bring down by 1.6mm - this will take off the pull tabs, and the front ring might possibly come free - once in, the circlip will hold this down - the seal is bonded to the outer ring. You seal is then 'shimmed' further up the shaft on a fresh new section.

Most important is you prep the seal for fitment - simply pressing it down the shaft lip first, will destroy it. You'll need some heatshrink shrunk down on that front shaft section, so there's no step edge for the seal to run over. Lube with compressor oil.

I'd recommend getting a dead compressor for nothing, and get the front shaft - EA-EL are the same, it's only the housing that varies for the belt arrangement. Put your heatshrink on and shrink, lube with oil, and press the seal on the shaft front edge first(where the pull tabs were), wiggle slightly to work the seal. Then you can put your heatshrink on the compressor shaft, lube and carefully press the seal lip side down the shaft and bore, and circlip it in.

The pulley bearing will be dry too I'd guess - you can buy new ones, but they are a PITA to remove and install. Check your existing bearing for play/roughness - carefully remove the seals with instrument screwdrivers, put a smear of HT bearing bearing grease, carefully press the seals back in. I actually worked grease through the bearing - too much, needed to take the clutch off and clean the area weekly, the grease flinging sorted itself out after a fortnight.

I got a green O ring assortment kit from Burson's for $27 all you'll ever need. Receiver/Drier http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261061393390 ... 1438.l2649 .
I have 3 cars to service the A/C systems - one with shaft seal leak, another with condensor leak.
I'd go broke buying 3 new compressors - I repaired the shaft seal leak one 4 mths ago - so good to have proper A/C these summer months - those that reckon they can just wind down the window and be comfortable are kidding themselves.


...thanks for this snap! I was thinking of buying a stuffed condensor to have a geezer at seeing as I was having issues with my air con during the hot days. My AC system has never been looked at and was rather woeful with last years heat spell.

This should be a tech doco!! Also some pictures would be nice...might take some if I end up getting a condensor.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF/EL Aircon Hi/Lo side service port fittings
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Thanks Phong. Get hold of a ford shop manual and read - good explanations on A/C.
My EL wagon had a front seal leak for a couple years - rendered it pretty ineffective in anything over mid 20's degrees.
Different story now - has been really handy in these 40 degree plus days. Obviously not 100% efficient at those temps, but when the condensor is trying to transfer heat to surrounding air of same or higher temp, you can't expect it too.
You'll find most EF/EL's haven't had the receiver/drier ever replaced for routine A/C service, probably only leaks. This will be due to having to remove the front bar for access.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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