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5.0 ECU Options (manual conversion discussion) 

 

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 Post subject: 5.0 ECU Options (manual conversion discussion)
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:27 pm 
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Im dropping the 5.0 from a 1992 DC Fairlane LTD into my 1965 XP. One of the engineering challenges faced is the fact that the ECU in the LTD is for an auto, and I plan on running a C4/2500 stall converter combination behind the motor(BTR's suck the wang :P )

What options do I have for the ECU on this setup. Should I try and hunt down an EB 5.0/Manual ECU from a wreckers? Or purchase an A9L/A9P and use tweecer? Is there a third option that doesnt cost over a three or four hundred dollars?

Will the 92 ECU even have a real problem if it cant detect the TCU/BTR? Or should I ignore it.

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Megasquirt is another option to look at.

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Waggin wrote:
Megasquirt is another option to look at.


Yeah I was considering one of those, but it might just be outside of the budget cost wise, and I dont reckon ill have a crack at soldering my own. Its just asking for an engine bay fire :P lol

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:54 pm 
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Shouldnt be a huge problem dave, much along the lines of the e-series boys who have converted from autos to manuals.

At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, the trans control is not integrated into the ECU on a V8 ECU like it is on those ungodly 6cyl ECUs.

There is very little interaction between the ECU and the transmission control module. MAYBE the trans temp link will need fudging and the tcm MIGHT tell the ECU "it's ok, he's in P or N - let him start it"

I reckon a bit of flexing in the old grey matter and you'll be able to use that ECU.

Where's xr9ute....

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:02 pm 
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4.9 EF Futura wrote:
Shouldnt be a huge problem dave, much along the lines of the e-series boys who have converted from autos to manuals.

At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, the trans control is not integrated into the ECU on a V8 ECU like it is on those ungodly 6cyl ECUs.

There is very little interaction between the ECU and the transmission control module. MAYBE the trans temp link will need fudging and the tcm MIGHT tell the ECU "it's ok, he's in P or N - let him start it"

I reckon a bit of flexing in the old grey matter and you'll be able to use that ECU.

Where's xr9ute....


Yeah I knew the TCU and ECU were seperate in the early E series, I was told that the ECU "might" still want a "go" signal from the TCU. If theres a way to fool it into running without doing an ecu change at all, definately would prefer that. If not however, I'm going to have to weigh up either a dedicated LPG setup with no ecu, or a another type of petrol ecu.

And feel free to teach me to suck eggs on this topic, I dont have all the knowledge I need on ecu's hence why this thread is here :D

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:23 pm 
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sourbastard wrote:
4.9 EF Futura wrote:
Shouldnt be a huge problem dave, much along the lines of the e-series boys who have converted from autos to manuals.

At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, the trans control is not integrated into the ECU on a V8 ECU like it is on those ungodly 6cyl ECUs.

There is very little interaction between the ECU and the transmission control module. MAYBE the trans temp link will need fudging and the tcm MIGHT tell the ECU "it's ok, he's in P or N - let him start it"

I reckon a bit of flexing in the old grey matter and you'll be able to use that ECU.

Where's xr9ute....


Yeah I knew the TCU and ECU were seperate in the early E series, I was told that the ECU "might" still want a "go" signal from the TCU. If theres a way to fool it into running without doing an ecu change at all, definately would prefer that. If not however, I'm going to have to weigh up either a dedicated LPG setup with no ecu, or a another type of petrol ecu.

And feel free to teach me to suck eggs on this topic, I dont have all the knowledge I need on ecu's hence why this thread is here :D


In the beginning, god created the transistor...

Ok.. prob dont need to go that far back.

Yeah seperate TCM for early 6cyl e-series... that Ford decided would carry through on all the V8s - up until EL.

Yeah there's really only two issues which might arise:

- TCM telling the ECU that the gear selector is in N or P. Worst case scenario, hook up the TCM and get the appropriate resistor.

- TCM telling the ECU that trans temp is acceptable. Again, if this is an issue - the TCM can be fooled with resistors. It's been discussed quite a bit on FM (more in the context of e-series manual conversions).

A wiring diagram from the engine's donor vehicle would be a great start. Even an EF EL V8 diagram would be helpful - just need to look at the TCM/ECU wiring.

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:03 pm 
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I will reply to my email now Dave, just in that state of continually drunk, and forgetting to look at my inbox...
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:09 pm 
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347stroker wrote:
I will reply to my email now Dave, just in that state of continually drunk, and forgetting to look at my inbox...


a continual state of inbox and you forget to look at the drunks you say? :P

I told nick today you were being a snob lol

 

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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:24 pm 
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sourbastard wrote:
347stroker wrote:
I will reply to my email now Dave, just in that state of continually drunk, and forgetting to look at my inbox...


a continual state of inbox and you forget to look at the drunks you say? :P

I told nick today you were being a snob lol


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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:36 pm 
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Lucky for you I was looking for old threads mate. I've converted my ED V8 from auto to manual and I have successfully made my auto spec ECU give me 100% whilst there is no auto box to communicate with. You could do this with yours and it will only cost $2 in resistors and wire. If you run your ECU without the tranny controller and resistors, you will lose ignition advance down low and as a matter of fact, the EECIV takes away a massive chunk of advance so that your 302 will get smacked by a mirage at a traffic light duel.

 

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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:47 pm 
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thats excellent barnarcus, this is twice you have had some good answers for me, i owe you a beer!

can you tell me exactly what resistors you used where? I assume the mods were to the TCU?

 

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:20 am 
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No worries mate, happy to help out, thats the beauty of the internet!

I'll have to search for my paperwork and notes and give you a better reply. Basically off the top of my head, you will need resistors for each solenoid, the PRND switch and the temp sensor. I'll give you a list of each resistor and which wire is what with a couple of diagrams if I can find them.

I'll start looking later this morning. cheers :)

 

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:16 am 
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Awesome thanks for that mate! :D

 

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:46 am 
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Righto SB this is what I've got. This mod will basically transform a manualised 5.0 Falcon/Fairlane. Most, if not all, people who put a manual in to replace an auto will not change the ECU to a manual spec one. Without this mod to their auto spec ECU, they are wasting their time. Here is what I used from FFAU member NZ. I changed some minor things here and there but kudos go to him:

Ok, to fix this problem I wired in 8 resistors. It is best if you pull the loom out and have it sitting on the floor to work on it.

Transmission Temp Sensor:
Pin 1 is the trans oil temp sensor. It needs a 36ohm resistor wired into it. This means cut the wire going to pin 1 leaving enough to work with, and solder the resistor to the wire. Pin 5 is the return ground for this so cut the pin 5 wire and basically make a loop.

***I USED A MINIMUM 57 OHM RESISTOR HERE UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 15K OHM***

Transmission Solinoids:
Pins 11, 12, 13, 26, 27, 28 are Solinoids 4, 1, 6, 3, 2 and 7 in that order. They need a 34 ohm resistor wired into each. Its the same as above, cut wire, solder resitor in but these all have to return to pin 21. Pin 21 is also the ground for the trans module so you have to leave this wire intact and splice the resistors into it. I simply twisted the resitor tails together and then stripped back a section of the pin 21 wire and soldered them onto that.

Variable Pressure Solinoid: S5 Solinoid
This needs a different resistance value of 4.5ohm. This wires back to pin 7 which is the ground for then S5. You can make a loop as with the oil temp sensor.

PNDR Switch:
This has several values depending on what position the lever is (or was in). It needs to be wired to be in neutral for the reason Ill come to soon. It needs 7k ohm and needs to be looped back to pin 10


Some Notes:
The reason why it needs to be wired to think its in neutral is because it wont be trying to put current through the resitors as if it were in gear. Basically all we are interested in is having the car pass the self test when it is started and to give the signal to the EEC that it is NOT in reverse. I used 1w resistors which is plenty big enough. Remember to have the fuse for the Auto Trans left in as when I converted my car we pulled it out so there wouldnt be any power going to the plug. I couldn't work out why the hellI couldnt get the car to go properly even after the changes then it dawned on me after I starred checking the simple things. Some of the resistors I had to pair up to get the right value. Example: the PNDR switch I think i used a 4.7 and a 2.2k ohm. Most resistors are around about their stated values but can be up to 10% either side. There is a built in tolerance which I will go over in a second.

Resistor values in a nutshell:
1) Pin 1 temp sensor 36 ohm wired to pin 5. This makes it think the trans is at normal operating temp.
***I USED A 57OHM RESISTOR HERE***
2)Pin11,12,13,26,27,28, solinoid 4,1,6,3,2,7, 34 ohm wired into pin 21. This can be anything from 23 - 45 ohm and 34 is the nominal value. For example I used a couple of 36's and a few 39's as it was all that was avalible.
3)Pin 17 PNDR switch 7k ohm wired back to pin 10. This can be anywhere from 6.8k - 7.2k ohm. If it is outside this range it will default back to thinking its in D and therefore putting power through the resitors.


***THIS WOULDN'T WORK FOR ME. NO MATTER WHAT GEAR I EMULATED, I STILL HAD POWER GOING THROUGH THESE RESISTORS. I USED 5 WATT RESISTORS(Big white ones)MOUNTED ON A PCB AND COOLED BY A FRESH AIR VENT PLUMBED INTO A VENT***

4)Pin 29 S5 solinoid 4.5 ohm wired back to pin 7. This can be anything from 3 - 6 ohm with 4.5 being the nominal.

Easy stuff.

The result? Well amazing. To try to best extent of the power limiting I'll describe what it was doing. 1st gear acceleration at about 50% throttle was all good, engine sounded like it reved sweetly although not under any real load. With 50% acceleration but then WOT at about 3000rpm and the car accelerated at the same rate but the engine sounded rough as though the timing was severely retarded. WOT with the wiring changes now hauls a** compared to what it was. A guess would be about maybe 40kw that was being lost... enough sothat I could only just walk away from a 3 speed EA in a traffic light duel. Now she lights the bags reeal good!


Well worth the effort mate. Took me a bit of fiddling but for a ground up job that you are doing, this could be done very easily. I used a different value resistor from what NZ used on the temp sensor as the Ford workshop manual states that the temp resistance is from a minimum of 57 Ohm to 15K Ohm.

Another thing too. Take a multimeter to d**k Smiths when you buy your resistors as people can mix up the little drawers that they are stored in.

I'll send you a PM on the other forum with a diagram of the wires in relation to the transmission controller plugs. Cheers :)

 

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Great work barnacus.

Will sticky this thread if that's ok with you?

 

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