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 Post subject: E10 Fuel
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Just curious whos running E10 fuel, in what sort of car and what they think of it? Thoughts..... I have mine im just wondering what others think.
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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:44 pm 
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personally I wouldn't use it, because I don't know much about it, I'm sure you know many countries in South America have E10 and nothing else and it seems to work, perhaps they have a different blend over there, and the V8 Supercars have to use it I think. I would like to see the internals of an engine that has run on E10 for 100,000+km. Not being negative but all I have heard are bad reports about E10 such as varnishing/gumming and poor fuel economy. Hope your car is running ok on it.

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:42 pm 
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E10 means (up to) 10% ethanol. I did a lot of research on it and used it for a while. In my experience, it's a mixed bag - not emphatically good or bad.

Economy-wise, ethanol releases less energy (heat) per litre than petrol, so you need more of it to do the same work - roughly 30% more for pure ethanol, 3% more for E10.

But ethanol is also an oxygenate - releases oxygen when you burn it, like nitrous, but to a very tiny degree. If your ECU fuel trims have enough range to adjust the fuel to compensate for the added oxygen, you should get about 1% more power and torque for E10 (based on the tests I have seen) - about 10% more for pure ethanol.

These two effects tend to partly offset each other, so what you end up with is slightly reduced fuel economy (maybe 2%), and slightly increased power/torque (maybe 1%). I couldn't notice any difference on either score, and it's probably barely measurable. Also, different engine designs and driving styles will cause different outcomes, so "results will vary".

Ethanol also has a higher octane rating than petrol, so 10% ethanol blended with 90% petrol will have a higher octane than the petrol by itself. But the advertised octane rating of E10 will already include the effect of the ethanol. So, E10 rated at 91 octane (basically 90% 89-octane petrol + 10% 109-octane ethanol) is no better at resisting knock/ping/detonation than 91 octane straight petrol.

Normally, any moisture in a fuel tank will collect at the bottom (petrol floats on top, being less dense); if this water gets sucked into the engine, the car will run poorly, or not at all. Ethanol has the unusual feature of being able to mix with both water and petrol. So, it will emulsify (mix) moisture in the system evenly into the petrol and consume it without problem. If you live in an area with wide temperature ranges, especially where humidity is high, this can be an advantage. If moisture condensing in your system is a problem, filling with E10 every third tank will solve it. If the temperature gets below zero, it also prevents that same moisture freezing in your fuel lines - a real life saver. On the flipside, this also means it attracts moisture (hygroscopic), so don't ever use it in your boat or leave it in the tank of a vehicle that will be sitting for more than a month or so.

Ethanol can deteriorate some materials that have been used in fuel systems. Early on, there were horror stories of cars burning to the ground because of ethanol in the fuel splitting rubber fuel lines. Australian and American cars made since 1986 have basically all been designed to use E10, and there are no worries using it in E-series and later Falcons. Asian and Euro cars can be a lot more hit and miss, so you need to check with the manufacturer or fuel company for compatibility.

Ethanol is also less kind to paintwork than normal petrol. If you spill E10 on your paint, it will strip the wax instantly. Though, if you wipe it off before it dries, there should be no permanent damage to the paint, and rewaxing will bring the shine back.

There shouldn't be an issue with gumming or varnish. Ethanol is a clean-burning solvent that leaves effectively no residue after evaporation. It dissolves some things than petrol does not, so should leave your system as clean as, or cleaner than, straight petrol of the same octane rating. Higher-octane petrol generally has more detergents, so cleans better regardless of ethanol content. Certainly, as long as the car is a daily driver, and not left to sit for weeks on end, you have less chance of getting rust in your fuel system with E10, as it removes moisture.

I used 98-octane E10 for about a year in my mildly-modded EF XR6, and found no problems or benefits vs 98-octane straight petrol, but it's harder to find, so have been running normal Mobil 98-octane ever since.

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:16 am 
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efxr6wagon wrote:
E10 means (up to) 10% ethanol. I did a lot of research on it and used it for a while. In my experience, it's a mixed bag - not emphatically good or bad.

Economy-wise, ethanol releases less energy (heat) per litre than petrol, so you need more of it to do the same work - roughly 30% more for pure ethanol, 3% more for E10.

But ethanol is also an oxygenate - releases oxygen when you burn it, like nitrous, but to a very tiny degree. If your ECU fuel trims have enough range to adjust the fuel to compensate for the added oxygen, you should get about 1% more power and torque for E10 (based on the tests I have seen) - about 10% more for pure ethanol.

These two effects tend to partly offset each other, so what you end up with is slightly reduced fuel economy (maybe 2%), and slightly increased power/torque (maybe 1%). I couldn't notice any difference on either score, and it's probably barely measurable. Also, different engine designs and driving styles will cause different outcomes, so "results will vary".

Ethanol also has a higher octane rating than petrol, so 10% ethanol blended with 90% petrol will have a higher octane than the petrol by itself. But the advertised octane rating of E10 will already include the effect of the ethanol. So, E10 rated at 91 octane (basically 90% 89-octane petrol + 10% 109-octane ethanol) is no better at resisting knock/ping/detonation than 91 octane straight petrol.

Normally, any moisture in a fuel tank will collect at the bottom (petrol floats on top, being less dense); if this water gets sucked into the engine, the car will run poorly, or not at all. Ethanol has the unusual feature of being able to mix with both water and petrol. So, it will emulsify (mix) moisture in the system evenly into the petrol and consume it without problem. If you live in an area with wide temperature ranges, especially where humidity is high, this can be an advantage. If moisture condensing in your system is a problem, filling with E10 every third tank will solve it. If the temperature gets below zero, it also prevents that same moisture freezing in your fuel lines - a real life saver. On the flipside, this also means it attracts moisture (hygroscopic), so don't ever use it in your boat or leave it in the tank of a vehicle that will be sitting for more than a month or so.

Ethanol can deteriorate some materials that have been used in fuel systems. Early on, there were horror stories of cars burning to the ground because of ethanol in the fuel splitting rubber fuel lines. Australian and American cars made since 1986 have basically all been designed to use E10, and there are no worries using it in E-series and later Falcons. Asian and Euro cars can be a lot more hit and miss, so you need to check with the manufacturer or fuel company for compatibility.

Ethanol is also less kind to paintwork than normal petrol. If you spill E10 on your paint, it will strip the wax instantly. Though, if you wipe it off before it dries, there should be no permanent damage to the paint, and rewaxing will bring the shine back.

There shouldn't be an issue with gumming or varnish. Ethanol is a clean-burning solvent that leaves effectively no residue after evaporation. It dissolves some things than petrol does not, so should leave your system as clean as, or cleaner than, straight petrol of the same octane rating. Higher-octane petrol generally has more detergents, so cleans better regardless of ethanol content. Certainly, as long as the car is a daily driver, and not left to sit for weeks on end, you have less chance of getting rust in your fuel system with E10, as it removes moisture.

I used 98-octane E10 for about a year in my mildly-modded EF XR6, and found no problems or benefits vs 98-octane straight petrol, but it's harder to find, so have been running normal Mobil 98-octane ever since.

Thanks heaps mate, I know alot more about it now than what I ever did, if only the thread was about F-34 FS-II fuel, I would know a little more. Thanks again.

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Honestly, E10 is a wank thing to make people think fuel companies/govco are trying to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions. IMHO, E85 or plain ULP/PULP. BUT only if your car is setup to use E85.

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:41 pm 
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In the marine industry we strongly recommend against it as it tends to attract moisture after a period of time. That sitting around in a boats fuel tank is a bad thing. That in conjunction with break down of some fuel lines makes it a bad thing. All i have heard running it in late model cars is that your fuel consumption will increase( use more fuel) for the same result. I was just curious to see whos using it in their cars.
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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:59 pm 
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i know of a few guys running e 85 in there e series, no problems with there fuel systems. there cars are set up for performance not economy..

there are also quite a few ba/bf and fg turbo being tuned on e 85 with big power numbers..

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:41 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
i know of a few guys running e 85 in there e series, no problems with there fuel systems. there cars are set up for performance not economy..

there are also quite a few ba/bf and fg turbo being tuned on e 85 with big power numbers..

Im only talking about e10, e85 is pretty hard to get in adelaide.
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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:46 pm 
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ok well im running e10 in my au and it runs great..
the only downside is i get 30km less per tank of fuel compared to running premium

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:17 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
ok well im running e10 in my au and it runs great..
the only downside is i get 30km less per tank of fuel compared to running premium

Well only 30kms less would put you in front then moneywise...... if std unleaded was $1.50 a litre, 95 premium is usually 10c a litre more $1.60, 98 $1.65 alitre and E10 usually 3 -5c alitre less tha std unleaded , you would have to be in front only losing 30kms. How long have you been running this? Do you notice any performance difference?
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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:36 pm 
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I use e10 in my el wagon . It's great get good economy. Around 500 km per tank

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:39 pm 
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My mates workshop has one car a month come in with issues when using E10, just use 95ron as its much better!!!

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:16 pm 
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MICKYYYY wrote:
My mates workshop has one car a month come in with issues when using E10, just use 95ron as its much better!!!

just curious, not nit picking, but what type of issues has ya mate seen? I've been thinking about using a tank of it between every 4-5 tanks of 91 or 95 ULP as I have heard it can get rid of water in fuel system.

 

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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:50 am 
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Just my 2 cents worth ( yeah I know).
I use to work at United Medlow Bath. The E10 we use to sell was 95 RON and I used it for the entire time I worked there ( 3.5 years) in a TJ Magna I had. Fuel economy was FAR better when I used it compared to stock 95 and it ran better aswell. I NEVER had an issue using it, mind you the boss was really caring about his fuel quality and we did water paste tests daily.
The 91 E10 most places sell now days I dont like, that extra 4 made all the difference. I would only still use E10 from united now except I have now moved and there isnt one close anymore. The 91 E10 thats sold at Caltex Hazo has caused all sorts of problems for me in the past but I dont know if its just that station and it's lack of checks. Shell's E10 ( 91) at Lawson has not caused any issues for my Ef, and surprisingly I just had the fuel pump die on me again after being a d**k and getting E10 from Hazo.
I understand why people use 98. I dont know in my opinion if it justifies the excessive price increase compared to 91 and definitely not the 95 E10 from United's. Just my thoughts anyway.

One thing to clear up too. Allot of the problem with fuels we get now days is the fuel reserves at the main depo's are never aloud to drop down. Fuel does go off and the off fuel is topped up and mixed with the new stuff- That comes direct from delivery drivers and not something I have made up.
Shell is one of only a few suppliers of fuel to all stations, so buying from a specific company ( unless from a suppliers direct chain) does not mean the fuels better. Fuels Fuel ( 95 E10's different as most stations dont do 95E10 but 91) and its the workers, the setup, the age of the equipment on the stations site, the site design ( tank placements etc) and the owners care that counts more than the station name itself.
Even though you might think your buying 98, it does not mean your buying 98. Small print says it will be " up to" 98. Most 91's are generally around 89 and 98 is around 95/96.

I know this s**t as like I said I worked in a station for 3.5 years and ran the shop for 2.5.
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 Post subject: Re: E10 Fuel
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:27 am 
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mick au2 wrote:
MICKYYYY wrote:
My mates workshop has one car a month come in with issues when using E10, just use 95ron as its much better!!!

just curious, not nit picking, but what type of issues has ya mate seen? I've been thinking about using a tank of it between every 4-5 tanks of 91 or 95 ULP as I have heard it can get rid of water in fuel system.


All sorts of issues but ill find out exactly!!! I just use 95/98 and only use petrol stations that are busy as you know your getting a fresh batch...

 

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