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EF timing problem 

 

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 Post subject: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 12:57 am 
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I have a EF Futura 6 cyl wagon, purchased it not going. It starts quite easily but will not run over about 1250 rpm. Have checked cam timing, replaced cam timing sensor, replaced crank pulley sensor replaced ECU. When I check the timing with the timing light it is retarded about 15 to 20 deg. As there is no timing adjustment on these I am stumped, the car is also on LPG and does the same on either fuel.
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 11:42 am 
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You are putting into base timing when you check it? It cannot be checked at idle...

Seems like you've replaced a lot of things on a whim... Have you checked the computer for codes? If you have a bad sensor the computer will tell you it is out of range....

Also was the cam sync sensor locked when installed? If not it'll have to be reinstalled...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 1:01 pm 
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Has your balancer slipped?

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 1:37 pm 
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Balancer has not slipped, checked by manually putting on TDC. Not sure how to get the codes from the compuer would appreciate advice on that. The cam angle sensor was locked and the lock pin facing the retaining bolt on completion
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 10:43 pm 
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with the engine running (not in diagnostic mode) the ignition timing should be around 15-20 deg btdc..

when you say it doesn't rev past 1250rpm does it miss fire or jerk or just stop reving?

have you checked if the cat converter is blocked??
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:09 am 
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No misfire or rough running timing is way retarded, not advanced. If you hold your foot flat it just revs to 1250 or so and stays there. On lpg it backfires. Will check the cat though.The problem is no history of the car I purchased it cheap because the previous owner could not fix it so I am unsure if the problem came on slowly or just suddenly happened. My first thoughts were the crank sensor as there was evidence of a shredded fan belt so I reasoned that the sensor may have been damaged.
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 10:17 am 
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Sounds like blocked cat...

I tried to link the tech doc but it wouldn't work yesterday... All tech docs didn't exist... Are other people having this issue?

Vikketer, you haven't checked the timing properly unless you work out how to check codes... After the computer has given out all the stored codes the computer then removes all timing which means you're in base timing mode... It should then show it is timed at tdc... After 3 minutes it'll go back to adding or taking timing and you'll see it running a normal btdc ignition timing at idle...

If you google and which pins to short in the diagnostic plug you'll find out if you have any trouble sensors... Saves a lot of trying things for the hell of it... Plus you'll be able to actually check the timing correctly...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:03 am 
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tech docs are working
suggest ring local auto elect and see if possible to scan for codes at home $??
may have problem with fuel pressure - knock sensor - wiring - ECU -exhaust etc...and computer is altering timing to counter act - which as TimmyA has said is why it needs to be checked in base mode for base timing -
local library may have a workshop manual you can borrow for scan procedure without a scan tool - will require a analog voltmeter or LED test light to carry out however - you may also have codes put in it by yourself or previous owner when testing different things,requiring clearing of codes first then retesting after running for awhile ..................................
check docs for someone on forum that makes a tester for your model ??
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:38 pm 
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OK I have made a device to grab the fault codes and the only code that comes up is 786 Performance indicator open circuit or shorted ??? Cannot find what the PIL is any clues ???
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:41 pm 
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performance indicator light in dash has probably got a blown globe..................

is your timing light just normal or does it have a control you wind back for reading how much advance you have ?
thinking out loud here -have you tried disconnecting knock sensor
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:49 pm 
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My timing light is normal, but the timing is Retarded approx 15 to 20 deg not advanced.

Can anyone advise on tne Performance Indicator Light, it is not mentioned in the owners handbook or the repair manual but I get fault code 786 which is mentioned in the fault codes which says
" PIL Output check fail. Performance Indicator Light output is faulty. Can be caused by open circuit or shorted to ground , +12v "
I printed out all the wiring diagrams and cannot find any reference to it. This is the only fault code that comes up apart from 111 and that is quote " Pass there are not codes to display for the selected test" I Have conducted KOEO and KOER tests, then zeroed the test and retested with the same result.

It has been suggested by another mechanic that the electronics in the base of the coil pack can cause problems, has anyone experienced this also.
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:49 pm 
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vikketer wrote:
My timing light is normal, but the timing is Retarded approx 15 to 20 deg not advanced.

Can anyone advise on tne Performance Indicator Light, it is not mentioned in the owners handbook or the repair manual but I get fault code 786 which is mentioned in the fault codes which says
" PIL Output check fail. Performance Indicator Light output is faulty. Can be caused by open circuit or shorted to ground , +12v "
I printed out all the wiring diagrams and cannot find any reference to it. This is the only fault code that comes up apart from 111 and that is quote " Pass there are not codes to display for the selected test" I Have conducted KOEO and KOER tests, then zeroed the test and retested with the same result.

It has been suggested by another mechanic that the electronics in the base of the coil pack can cause problems, has anyone experienced this also.



so your saying your timing mark is 20 deg atdc /past the timing mark??
or before the timing mark...
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:35 pm 
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Is the ECU in LOS mode?

Does the fuel pump stay on with the key on engine off or does it prime for 2 seconds?

Could be faulty ECU.
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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Get base timing sorted and confirmed - you're giving a lot of vague replies, it's hard to figure out where you're at.
A belt snapping can cause big damage, particularly if it's wrapped around things - I've seen a tensioner broken in two.
If there's evidence of belt shred, make sure the crank sensor area has no damage - IIRC the balancer pickup should have a tooth missing for TDC - same as where the marks are, make sure as ranga asked the balancer hasn't misaligned and the teeth are not damaged.

vikketer wrote:
My first thoughts were the crank sensor as there was evidence of a shredded fan belt so I reasoned that the sensor may have been damaged.
What evidence was there??

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF timing problem
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:33 pm 
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Ok I will summerise:
I purchased the car not running. When I inspected it there was evidence of a shredded fan felt, bit of rubber and fibre around the place but nothing appeared to be out of place, also a new belt and idler pulley had been fitted.
My first thought was a damaged crank angle sensor, as the vehicle was 100km from home I took a new sensor and tried that. Didnt work so I trailered the car home.
I then tried the cam angle sensor and fitted it correctly at that stage I tremoved the rocker cover and number one spark plug and by sticking a screw driver down the cylinder ensured I was on TDC compression stroke.
At this point the timing mark lined up with the mark on the harmonic balancer and the cam gear was at 3 oclock establishing that the pully had not shifted and the cam timing was correct.
I have changed the ECU with a known good one .
The car is on LPG and petrol and does the same thing on both.
It has new plug leads and plugs and they have been correctly fitted and the firing order is correct.
When I start it is is a little difficult to start then it starts and can be gently taken up to about 1200 rpm.
When I looped A and L to do the timing the timing mark on the pulley is approx 20 t0 30 mm on the right of the pointer so it is firing after TDC.
I also tried the throttle sensor and the MAF sensor.
When I obtained the codes I got 786 repeated twice followed by 111 repeated twice no other codes .

The point about the harmonic balancer having lost a tooth is worth a check I have not done that yet.

The previous owner was very vague about what happened which made diagnosis hard.

I am a qualified mechanic but trained many years ago prior to ECU's etc so I do have a good understanding of engines though I have mainly worked on Diesels and Marine motors.

Sorry about being so being so long winded but I thought I should recap the whole story.
Cheers Peter
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