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LPG Conversion: air fuel mix or direct injection? 

 

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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:41 am 
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:58 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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ItchiOne wrote:
Unclewoja, you should not be so insistent that lpg will always be inferior to petrol just because it has less energy per litre than petrol.
You are neglecting the fact that lpg has a higher octane rating.

As better lpg systems are developed, they will be better able to take advantage of lpg in much the same way that electronic injection was better able to take advantage of petrol.
With better lpg systems being developed and engines designed to suit, it with it bring large gains to the lpg buying public and the performance enthusiasts at large.

In any case, most lpg systems are installed for a reduction in running costs, which the fuel is rather good at achieving, rather than for any power increase.

lpg injection (wheather liquid or sequention vapour) is not the end of development but only the beginning.
As development progresses, you may yet eat your words as lpg may end up knocking off petrol as a power fuel.
Its just an issue of development time, money and industry desire and anything can be achieved - afterall humans did walk on the moon :)

For now though, stock standard injected petrol versus injected lpg on a stock petrol engine and the winner is injected lpg :D

Go down the mod path and petrol will win easily as there are many many more years of petrol power development to draw upon.
It will be some years away before the real benefit of lpg can be seen in the performance world.

As for lpg start issues, coolant is used to stabilized the converter tempertaure to avoid freezups when starting from cold on a cold day and driving off with a heavy foot, hence many designs will run on petrol until the coolant is warm enough.
Cleanliness is sacraficed for reliability for this short time :)

Till the day of performace lpg, enjoy your 10 yo lpg car and the savings it gives you

Cheers, Itchione


Fact: To produce maximum power, the spark on an engine has to develop peak cylinder power @ approx 15 deg after top dead center... give or take a couple of degrees. If the characteristics of an engine are such that petrol can easily achieve that required spark advance without pinging, then LPG wil ALWAYS lose out over petrol.

If the octane rating is too low and petrol is not able to give you peak cylinder power @ 15 deg ATDC without pinging, then LPG may well give you better performance.

Higher octane rating DOES NOT EQUAL MORE POWER like 99% of the population think. Otherwise, LPG would have more power than petrol. Octane resists detonation. If your engine does not detonate with the spark tuned exactally right, the a higher octane fuel won't give you more power, therefore LPG won't give you more power.

The only way to utilise the higher octane of LPG to see the benefits of the higher octane rating is to physically modify the engine to give a higher compression ratio and you don't see people thowing on $3000 on engine work with shaved heads and high comp pistons with their LPG installation.

And if you do those modifications to the engine, the simply running a higher octane fuel will again put petrol on top of LPG once again. LPG sports a better octane rating over petrol in THIS country because it is well known that we have s**t petrol in this country. If we had the quality petrols that Europe have, the LPG would most likely have a LOWER octane rating than petrol.

LPG will have a place in the performance field only for the people with blind faith in LPG and only while the petrol this country produces has low octane numbers.

Lexus has developed direct inject petrol wich gives a performance boost of about 5% - 8% over standard injection... well beyone ANY performance boost LPG will give you. As LPG systems take a step forward, petrol systems will take a step foreward to quash any hopes LPG has of beating petrol.

The ONLY thing LPG is good for is cheaper running and that is ONLY made possible because LPG is EXCISE FREE.
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:33 pm 
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The power you make in an internal combustion depends on 2 things. The Energy rating, expressed in Brittish Thermal Units (BTU), and the octane rating (Research Octane Number or RON). The higher the octane rating, the more fuel can be compressed into a given volume and ignited so it burns smoothly. The energy rating is an indication of how much energy is released when a given amount of fuel is burnt.

Therefore its the ratio of octane level to energy rating which determines how much power a certain sized engine will make for any given fuel. This is where LPG has a chance to come up trumps.
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:22 pm 
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unclewoja wrote:
And if you do those modifications to the engine, the simply running a higher octane fuel will again put petrol on top of LPG once again. LPG sports a better octane rating over petrol in THIS country because it is well known that we have s**t petrol in this country. If we had the quality petrols that Europe have, the LPG would most likely have a LOWER octane rating than petrol.

Hmm Australia has 98RON available and Europe has?????????????????
And we don't pay as much for our petrol.

We mix butane with Propane and you complain about our petrol octane rating :evil: , 100% Propane is 100+ RON.

unclewoja wrote:
LPG will have a place in the performance field only for the people with blind faith in LPG and only while the petrol this country produces has low octane numbers.


Again how much higher RON are they :lol:

unclewoja wrote:
Lexus has developed direct inject petrol which gives a performance boost of about 5% - 8% over standard injection... well beyone ANY performance boost LPG will give you. As LPG systems take a step forward, petrol systems will take a step foreward to quash any hopes LPG has of beating petrol.


WOW so I suppose Mazda's MPS and other manufactures direct petrol injection don't exist. (You have been watching Lexus ads haven't you :lol:)

Big whoop petrol has been used in the automotive industry for nearly as long as it has existed, check for the relative time LPG has been used and the other boundaries it had to overcome like storage, oil companies and d***head (because they have no idea about it they victimise it)

unclewoja wrote:
The ONLY thing LPG is good for is cheaper running and that is ONLY made possible because LPG is EXCISE FREE.

Yes this is partially true, but cleaner alternative fuels should be excise free to encourage it's use.

 

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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:35 pm 
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unclewoja wrote:
One other thing also confuzzles me about petrol start LPG systems. LPG is a every clean fuel and it's cold start requirements are different to petrol. My car runs flawlessly on LPG from cold. It's got a petrol start device on it, but that only works for 2.0 seconds from ignition on. One huge benefit of LPG is because it burns much cleaner @ temp, and much much much cleaner when cold compared to petrol. I can't understand why people would want to run the petrol when it's dirtying the engine the most when you car run a clean fuel from cold.


How did you get that. Mine manually switches over when I flick the switch?
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:44 pm 
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If you've got a factory setup then if you start it on gas then it actually starts on petrol then flicks over to gas automatically.
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 Post subject: Re: LPG Conversion: air fuel mix or direct injection?
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:40 am 
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eMpTyCoFfIn wrote:
Ok so having come from my magna to a BA I've noticed a slight difference in fuel consumption... being the lead foot I am.

Therefor yesterday I went down to one of the places my work supplies LPG tanks for and asked them how much.

-----------------

"Normal system or direct injection system?"

"Uhh... what's the difference?"

"With the direct injection system you'll get better power and economy than the normal sytem, in fact our latest figures are hinting at better economy and power than normal fuel"

"Riiiight... price?"

"2100 for the regular system if you're supplying the tank or 2900 for the injection system if you're supplying the tank."

---------------------

Now to me this seems FAR to good to be true, though I'm inclined to believe the guy, either A: he's a good salesman, B: he's telling the truth or C: he's a smacktard.

now I've never even heard of this EFI for gas but I mean... I'm not exactly your everyday mechanic either.

Any comments?



Hi

call this guy on Guerra Automotive 03 9364 8244 and ask to speak to Julian and ask about the LPgas injection system with fully programmable Fuel mapping Tartaini ECU

there results are amazing on the BA falcons power output is just on par with petrol

the base map that is put into the system is very good but there maybe more room for better results if one is propared to have more fine tuning done on there vehicle

We check a Gem3 5.7lt he converted on the dyno the other day which needed more tuning than what the base map was supplied to him

he has the software to make fine adjustments which would need further dyno work , which is extra on top of the gas conversion to Direct LPgas injections the system is not cheap some where in the vercanty of $3600 to $3800 dpending on the vehicle

cheers

 

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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:22 pm 
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http://www.vags.net.au/BA-falcon-LPG.htm
check out the new gas injection system at the above website.
I am hoping it will also fit the EF wagon
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:07 am 
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Just reveived an email from VAGS and they state that for pre 2004 the SGI is not avaiable, has to do with meeting emissions or something.

Not sure why it is not available for pre 2004 however, there would sure be a BIG demand for it.
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:30 pm 
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hi

VAGS fuel injection gas systems are out already for the BA falcons and some other vehicles

i had one here at work the other day

the guy to speak to is the guy i mentioned before " call this guy on Guerra Automotive 03 9364 8244 and ask to speak to Julian and ask about the LPgas injection system with fully programmable Fuel mapping Tartaini ECU "

He fits VAGS injections systems on my side of town

cheers

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:45 am 
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xcabbi wrote:
If you've got a factory setup then if you start it on gas then it actually starts on petrol then flicks over to gas automatically.


So it cant be installed on a aftermarket setup?
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