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Question about timing after bbm and ecu change 

 

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 Post subject: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Hey guys, just a quick question for you. I have used the search function but i'm not really getting the right answers.

I am running the eb-ed motor in my xg and i have done a bbm conversion. I am using the el auto ecu with resistor trick as it is a manual.

Anyways i'm having some idle issues and i'm pretty sure they are timing related.

The question is "should my timing be set to 10deg btdc (for eb-ed motors) or 0deg tdc for el motors because i am running the el ecu."

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I just thought as the ecu controls timing this may factor into it.

I also have no knock sensor as there isn't a spot for it on my block.

The xg is also on lpg and currently i have to use 98 octane or i suffer hardcore pinging.

Cheers :D

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:06 am 
Getting Side Ways
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you have to enter it into base timing mode (by shorting 2 pins under the dash) and wait till the motor almost stalls (approx 2 minutes) and then set your timing to 0 Degrees NOT 10... then you turn the car off tighten dizy and your right to go.

 

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AU2 engine with Hoppers head/cam performance package & spool rods / CP pistons ,Snort 1200 plenum, T56 Manual & Billet short shifter, Front & Rear Slotted rotors, Pedders lowered suspension, LSD and tuned with EMS stinger 4424 347rwkw THE ED XR6 IS BOOSTED

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:09 am 
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ahhh so you do have to adjust the timing when the el ecu is installed....
this might be handy to post somewhere near the bbm conversion guide for the ea-ed people.

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Funny thing happened when I checked my timing, i put the ecu into timing mode by shorting the 2 pins and waiting a couple of minutes and then the timing mark stayed stationary at TDC. I thought this was weird as I cannot put 91 or 95 octane in my car because it pings like crazy... Only 98 works.
The car is on lpg too.

I decided to retard the timing by 5 degrees so it is now 5 degrees after TDC. The sound of the idle changed when i did this to a more old school falcon engine noise.

I'm just trying to work out, as my engine is an XG it should have been set at the IGN timing mark which is 10 degrees BTDC. As i changed the BBM and the ECU, i should have manually had to change the timing to TDC but i didnt.... I'm starting to think that when my engine was put together maybe the distributer was out a tooth, or the harmonic balancer wasnt put on right.

I'm currently experiencing surging and hesitation when the car is cold and on fuel. It only lasts a few seconds and if you let the car warm up its okay. I was thinking since the car is still in closed loop? when its cold my timing was too far advanced causing this sort of hesitation??? When it warmed up it used the learned ECU values.

What do you think??

I have checked all my sensor values on the ecu and everything seems normal as per the eb-ed workshop manual (i assume they voltages are the same for the EL ECU). Also i am currently using an AU Fuel injector rail which has a 280kpa fuel pressure regulator. The el one is 270kpa. This wouldnt cause any problems with fuel pressure would it??? I have also got a new fuel pump in there and fuel filter.

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:22 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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to make sure your at TDC take the spark plugs out and the dizy cap off. make sure your dizzy is pointing at no.1 (or close enough) and put a steel rod (soldering rod 8mm thick is good for this) and hand wind the crank bolt with a breaker bar till you get TDC (when the rod stops going up and starts to go back down) mark on the balancer with white pen in front of the timing cover groove.

Replace dizzy cap and plugs leads etc (make sure you have removed the rod/tools etc out of the engine bay) and start it up, add timing light and adjust the timing to match the TDC mark you made to the timing cover Groove, and thats the 0deg timing set, tighten the dizzy and take for a test drive.

NOTE: this is not the best way to do it but if you cant get your car into base timing mode its because of a few reasons
* timings either too far retarded/advanced and will stall if it goes into base timing mode
* you may have a underlying problem with the BBM/EL ECU wiring
* or you have too many fault codes. (taking too long to read out all the fault codes before going to Base Timing Mode.

anyhow hope this helps.


ALSO it may help if your running on petrol and not gas when you do all of this........

 

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AU2 engine with Hoppers head/cam performance package & spool rods / CP pistons ,Snort 1200 plenum, T56 Manual & Billet short shifter, Front & Rear Slotted rotors, Pedders lowered suspension, LSD and tuned with EMS stinger 4424 347rwkw THE ED XR6 IS BOOSTED

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Thanks for your quick reply. Sorry I must not have been too clear before. I can get the ECU in base timing mode. Its just when I did this i expected to see my timing at 10 btdc not tdc as it pings on fuel lower than 98 octane..

I was also running on petrol when i set all the timing.

Might be work checking TDC as you said to see if everything was installed properly as every time i have taken my car to a mechanic i end up doing the job again myself properly.

Also the car is not throwing any fault codes apart from the thermo fan code (as i have clutch fan) and the power steering pressure switch (as i have a steering box in the XG)

I'll see how I go with the slightly retarded timing....

I got a set of recon injections and threw them in about 6 months ago, maybe they aren't spraying properly or I have a fuel pressure issue? Would these give me the symptoms i am experiencing?

Thanks

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:09 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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could be fuel injection related? but usually they run richer and produce black smoke, Pinging is usally from too lean of fuel mix or too much timing, bad injectors may create this problem but a very slim chance. I have a set of EL injectors that have been cleaned ultrasonically if you want a spare set to try? send me a PM if interested $50 posted?

Its worth checking for TDC as i stated above as your balancer may have slipped (common with the older falcon motors or high Klm motors.) It couldnt hurt to check anyway.

 

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AU2 engine with Hoppers head/cam performance package & spool rods / CP pistons ,Snort 1200 plenum, T56 Manual & Billet short shifter, Front & Rear Slotted rotors, Pedders lowered suspension, LSD and tuned with EMS stinger 4424 347rwkw THE ED XR6 IS BOOSTED

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:21 pm 
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I wrote the BBM guide. On my EB I DID NOT TOUCH THE TIMING. It didnt want to start for about 2 minutes untill I realised I had the fuel hoses back to front. After that was rectified it started straight away. Not bad for a motor with 355000 on the clock.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Yeah maybe fuel injection related, I guess the timing needs to be a bit retarded anyways so I'm not restricted to just using 98 octane.

I'll see how it goes... I have replaced pretty much EVERYTHING on this car except for distributer cap and checking the timing. I have a high flow 2.5 inch stainless cat on aswell, this was done about 2 years ago. I imagine it would be pretty hard for this to block so its probably not this...
I might see if i can get hold of a pressure gauge and make sure i'm getting good fuel pressure, i'm not looking forward to it as its gonna be a b^tch to get that fuel line off.

I have another set of injectors off another bbm manifold sitting in my shed, they have been sitting there for a while but the car it came off ran pretty well so they might be okay?? I'll see what happens.
My car spent alot of time just running on gas before i bought it so i might have mega crap in the tank as i have gone through like 3 fuel pumps since i have had it and i have replaced my fuel filters twice.

I'll give the plugs a change this weekend and I'll change the fuel filter, reset the ECU and do an oil change. I'll leave the timing retarded 5 degrees and I'll see what happens. It just seems very lumpy at idle at the moment. The o2 sensor is fluctuating from 0.1 and 0.7 or 0.64 so that seems like its correct. So it shouldn't be that its running too rich or I would be getting the 02 voltage staying under 0.5 according to my workshop manual.

Might have to get it dyno tuned, that should show up any faults??? I just didnt want to part with the cash and I always like fixing stuff myself :D

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:02 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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just a thought when you mentioned that you havent replaced the dizzy cap? Check the roto button for excessive wear? may be a thought but this could do it?

 

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AU2 engine with Hoppers head/cam performance package & spool rods / CP pistons ,Snort 1200 plenum, T56 Manual & Billet short shifter, Front & Rear Slotted rotors, Pedders lowered suspension, LSD and tuned with EMS stinger 4424 347rwkw THE ED XR6 IS BOOSTED

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:47 am 
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Yeah thats an idea, Its just weird because it runs great when its on gas but then again I have had a broken ignition lead idle fine on lpg but on gas it missed....

I'll have to read up on what i'm looking for when I check the roto button, maybe i should just replace the cap and the rotor maybe???? Is that just a matter of marking the cap taking off those 2 side clips and just swapping over the ignition leads one by one so you dont mess it up? I remember on the older cars people just used to take their rotor out as like an anti theft thing so i'm guessing this just lifts out and it would just be a matter of marking that so that the new one goes in the same place...

I think i'll have to do some searching and reading of my workshop manual...

Thanks for the idea :D

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Hey guys, just an update... on the weekend i serviced that car and changed all my spark plugs and changed the dizzy cap.. Some of the spark plugs came out black (about 2) and the rest where the normal sort of brownish colour. Apart from that all went well.. I found out the car runs without that stupid little spring thing in the middle of the dizzy cap.. I put the car all together and then took it for a big drive. All was good and then i got home and saw this little spring on the floor and thought... Hang on a minute I have seen this before... Anyways i took the cap off and put it back.

While i was there I also swapped out my injectors for some second hand ones I had sitting in another bbm and also changed my air temp sensor (which was giving the correct readings but i am grasping at straws here). I also checked all my vacuum lines and rocker cover seals and went around the engine with some aero start and the revs didnt pick up anywhere i sprayed it. The car seemed to go better when warm but I still had the cold start issue.

When i took the car for a drive it did do the initial hesitation but after that came good. It just seems the first few times that you put your foot half down on the accelerator it just goes no where and its like its not getting fuel or maybe too much fuel that it cant burn. It seems that even if u let it warm up for 5 minutes or so and the car is warmer it still does it on initial take off for the first few corners. I am talking bad stumbling like the car wont pick up revs or go forward.... After this has happened and when the engine is warm it shows no symptoms of this whatsoever and pulls pretty hard.

I did use to have a problem with fuel pressure with the little green o ring that seals the fuel pump to the fuel line in the tank of the xg. This caused the car to have hardcore bucking both warm and cold. I got rid of the o ring and put some submersible fuel hose and some clamps so that i knew i wouldnt have fuel pressure problems anymore. The car ran great for a while and then one morning just started jerking around when i went to take off. I had a set of reconned injectors in there for 4 months prior to me finding out the problem was actually fuel pressure. Could this have damaged them causing me to have the bucking at cold starts now?

So far on the car to try to get it running properly as it should I have replaced.

02 sensor twice
Map sensor
TPS sensor
IAT sensor
Idle speed controller (3 or 4 times)
Spark plugs
Leads
Dizzy cap
Fuel pump 2 times
fuel filter 2 times
Injectors (ultrasonically cleaned but where in car for about 4 months with low fuel pressure)
I have blown out the fuel lines with compressed air when i had the fuel pump off and fuel rail out, both return and fuel line
I have checked the timing and all is okay (apart from tdc still having to make me run on 98 octane)
I have replaced inlet manifold gasket
I have checked all vacuum lines
I have checked every sensor that can be checked on the ecu plug and all are normal
ECU is throwing out codes for no power steering pressure switch (I have steering box) and the ones for the thermo fans (as I currently have a clutch fan). The rest is normal
My engine is also only about 60,000km old as it was replaced just after i got the car due to seized spark plugs and other issues.
I am running an el auto ecu with the resistor tricks for neutral and trans temp, these have been checked to make sure they are giving out the correct voltages.
Car is also on lpg and has extractors, everything else is standard apart from bbm.

I am out of idea's only thing i can think of is it must be the injectors.. I am thinking they must be a bit blocked and cant get all the fuel out in the morning when the accelerator is pushed down.. But then again when i pull the vacuum hose and plug it with my finger for the fuel pressure regulator the car runs richer and idles better.

I dont really want to keep throwing good money after bad but i want to get this car fixed. If anyone can suggest anything i am open to idea's and would really appreciate the help. I plan on spending a bit of money doing up this car but i want it to run properly before i start it as a project so you can understand my frustration

I really appreciate your input guys..and your wisdom

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Also forgot to add in my massive post above that this problem does not occur when the car runs on lpg...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:46 pm 
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OK just for an update as I have used the search function here and alot of people are having similar issues but cannot resolve them. Hopefully I will eventually get to the bottom of it.

Today i took out my fuel pump and made sure that i didnt have any leaking connections causing low fuel pressure. I took the pump out and assembly out and put it in an ice cream container with fuel in it and primed the car about 10 or so times. I did not notice any fuel coming out of the return line no matter how many times i primed it. Shouldn't fuel come out eventually as the pressure is too much and the fuel pressure regulator lets it go as it gets above the 280kpa???Does this mean there is fuel going somewhere else??? Leaking injectors?

I also noticed when the fuel pump was running in the car once i had started it that the return line was dumping fuel out at a very fast rate. I could not block the flow with my thumb over the return line either so there was a fair amount of pressure behind it. Is this normal????

So my next step is going to involve me taking off the fuel rail and leave the injectors in the rail and then put some paper below them and prime the car heaps of times and see if any are leaking....

Also just a quick question, would i so any damage to the engine if i was to turn the car over with the injectors out?? to make sure they are spraying properly?

Cheers

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about timing after bbm and ecu change
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:09 pm 
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it sounds right, when you kept priming the pump the engine was off, the ment that the fuel reg had no vacuum and the fuel reg would have allowed max pressure in the fuel rail..
if you could run the fuel pump long enough without the engine running it would have allowed the fuel to return after the rail reached the 280kpa..
when you had the engine running there would have been idle manifold vacuum this puts the fuel reg at its minimum allowing fuel to flow back to the tank...
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