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Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration 

 

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 Post subject: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Hi Everyone,

I have a '96 EFII Fairmont Ghia V8. The timing won't retard under acceleration, so it 'pinks' like crazy. The only way mitigate it is to accelerate slowly. I don't mind that around town, but on the open road and when I'm towing it's killing me (not to mention what it's doing to the engine).

I have a factory workshop manual and have checked everything (or so I believe). The only fault code the ECU is putting out is to do with one cooling fan. I have checked all the sensors and signals (HEGOs, TPS, IAT, ECT, Shifter, fuel pressure, EGR, MAF) at the ECU. I'm beginning to think it might be the ECU which scares me because these cars are rare. I've tried many wreckers to find parts for it and no one's got one. Plenty of 6s, but not 8s. I've even had to bypass the start inhibit function in the BEM because I can't get another one.

If I can't sort this out I'll stick an ordinary dizzy in it. The engine is still in good condition and I want it to stay that way! Then there's the transmission, but that's another saga...

Paul.
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Check the base timing, and clean the MAF. The ping is more than likely due to a lean condition from a dirty MAF. Is it stock?

Cheap ECUs can be had on eBay btw.

Jason
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:14 pm 
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your timing advances as you accelerate. not retard. and it's ping. not pink.

use a timing light and check you base timing. should be 30 degrees before top dead

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Apologies, I did leave 'checked base timing' out of my list above. It is bang on 30.

'WILDEB', timing RETARDS under acceleration, not advances. It retards because under acceleration the A/F mixture richens, meaning the A/F mixture BURNS faster and in order to ensure maximum cylinder pressure is created at the same point in the piston's travel, the timing needs to....RETARD. If it advanced the engine would 'PINK' (which is slang for detonation and a representation of the sound it makes), a condition caused by the A/F mixture igniting at some point in the cylinder away from the spark plug and the erroneous flame front hitting the true flame front created at the spark plug.

It is caused by using poor octane fuel, or the timing being too far ADVANCED, creating higher than normal cylinder pressure (like having too much compression), and causing the remaining yet-unburnt A/F mixture to spontaneously ignite and create the second flame front.


Thanks Jason, yes, it's dead stock. I will give the MAF a clean and see what happens. It's not sensitive material like quartz halogen or anything silly like that, is it? Had a look on Ebay. Plenty of 6 cyl ECUs, no 8s, or am I looking in the wrong place?

Paul.
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Sucker wrote:
Apologies, I did leave 'checked base timing' out of my list above. It is bang on 30.

'WILDEB', timing RETARDS under acceleration, not advances. It retards because under acceleration the A/F mixture richens, meaning the A/F mixture BURNS faster and in order to ensure maximum cylinder pressure is created at the same point in the piston's travel, the timing needs to....RETARD. If it advanced the engine would 'PINK' (which is slang for detonation and a representation of the sound it makes), a condition caused by the A/F mixture igniting at some point in the cylinder away from the spark plug and the erroneous flame front hitting the true flame front created at the spark plug.

It is caused by using poor octane fuel, or the timing being too far ADVANCED, creating higher than normal cylinder pressure (like having too much compression), and causing the remaining yet-unburnt A/F mixture to spontaneously ignite and create the second flame front.


Thanks Jason, yes, it's dead stock. I will give the MAF a clean and see what happens. It's not sensitive material like quartz halogen or anything silly like that, is it? Had a look on Ebay. Plenty of 6 cyl ECUs, no 8s, or am I looking in the wrong place?

Paul.

Just about all timing maps will Advance from idle, then Retard at higher revs, which is the benefit of having the ECU do the timimg, something like a mechanical or vac advance dizzy can only advance timing, so you can't run as much in the mid range as this is what it will also be at high revs.

ps: the slang for detonation is "PING" I have never heard the sound that "PINK" makes?
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:35 pm 
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dsyfer wrote:
Just about all timing maps will Advance from idle, then Retard at higher revs, which is the benefit of having the ECU do the timimg, something like a mechanical or vac advance dizzy can only advance timing, so you can't run as much in the mid range as this is what it will also be at high revs.

That's true, under cruise conditions where the mixture is lean. This is in reference to acceleration where the mixture is rich. Remember the vacuum advance on old dizzys is an economy device. It advances the timing under cruise conditions when the mixture is lean, but as soon as you put your foot down it relaxes and retards the timing because the mixture has richened, a condition that is desireable for accelerating.

dsyfer wrote:
ps: the slang for detonation is "PING" I have never heard the sound that "PINK" makes?

And I've never heard 'ping'. I was taught as an apprentice (a long time ago!) that it is 'pink', and the rattle sure sounds more like pinking than pinging. At least to me anyhow. Maybe we should agree to disagree on this one?
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:05 am 
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Hi my ELXR8 auto started pinging awhile ago we tried every thing eg plugs timing fuel compression test but no change.
Then disconnected the battery & turned the lights switch on to drain the memory from the computer left it like that ova nite reconnected next morning drove & no pinging
Dave

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:33 am 
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timing advances under acceleration


dont believe me


get ya timing light out and give the car a nice big rev, it advances!


also in dizzys they have wahts is called an advance curve which uses weights to advance throughout the rpm range, and this curve needs to be changed if u make engine mods ( ie running lpg )


if your car is PING'ing not pink wtf does pinking sound like ( pining is used as it sounds like a metal on metal ping )

dont forget there is pre detonation ( combustion not caused by the spark plug igniting the fuel air mix )
and then there is when the spark ignites the fuel air mix to early

both are described as pinging, but the causes are different

the advance is set too high due to this pining

or u could have some really bad/dirty fuel which will pre detonate under compression ( kinda like a diesel )

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:23 am 
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Sucker wrote:
Apologies, I did leave 'checked base timing' out of my list above. It is bang on 30.

'WILDEB', timing RETARDS under acceleration, not advances. It retards because under acceleration the A/F mixture richens, meaning the A/F mixture BURNS faster and in order to ensure maximum cylinder pressure is created at the same point in the piston's travel, the timing needs to....RETARD. If it advanced the engine would 'PINK' (which is slang for detonation and a representation of the sound it makes), a condition caused by the A/F mixture igniting at some point in the cylinder away from the spark plug and the erroneous flame front hitting the true flame front created at the spark plug.

It is caused by using poor octane fuel, or the timing being too far ADVANCED, creating higher than normal cylinder pressure (like having too much compression), and causing the remaining yet-unburnt A/F mixture to spontaneously ignite and create the second flame front.


Thanks Jason, yes, it's dead stock. I will give the MAF a clean and see what happens. It's not sensitive material like quartz halogen or anything silly like that, is it? Had a look on Ebay. Plenty of 6 cyl ECUs, no 8s, or am I looking in the wrong place?

Paul.


it advances. moron. like back in the day on old dizzy cars they have VACCUUM ADVANCE

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:29 pm 
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just to clear something up..
the term we use pinging, is in fact also known as pinking!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking
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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:30 pm 
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I think the term pinking has become 'acceptable' because theres that many people out there who call it that for the simple fact they dont know the term is actually pinging.

If you dont believe that the timing does in fact advance I'm sure someone could post up a screenshot of the timing graph...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:05 pm 
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it advances for the increase in engine speed

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:49 pm 
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Well, remembering back to the mech dizzy's.
Yes, centrifugal advance does advance throughout the increasing rev range - the weights and springs rotate the cam lobe shaft.
Vacuum advance moves the plate the breaker points sit on - high vacuum advances, low vacuum retards.
WOT at low speed is low vacuum, so vaccy advance retards.
So what is wrong with 'Sucker's explanation ??

EDIT: He's not a moron either - he hasn't abused you, so why start?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:51 pm 
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snap0964 wrote:
Well, remembering back to the mech dizzy's.
Yes, centrifugal advance does advance throughout the increasing rev range - the weights and springs rotate the cam lobe shaft.
Vacuum advance moves the plate the breaker points sit on - high vacuum advances, low vacuum retards.
WOT at low speed is low vacuum, so vaccy advance retards.
So what is wrong with 'Sucker's explanation ??

EDIT: He's not a moron either - he hasn't abused you, so why start?


he was putting things in CAPITALS being a SMARTASS

 

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 Post subject: Re: Timing Not Retarding Under Acceleration
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Hi. I know on the six cyl that when you set the timing you have to disable the preset advance in the ecu by linking or unpluging a wire somewhere or even though the base timing looks right it is too far advanced for normal running. May need to do more research and reset base timing???. Cheers MD.
PS Pinging and pinking have both been used for the 35 years that I have been in the trade and yes timing does advance with engine revs and also should retard under load. MD
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