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68mm Throttle body - RESULTS!!! 

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:40 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Dyno figures are only relevant if you're on the same dyno in the same car. They are for tuning and testing new features and are by no means a reason for winning a quarter mile drag. Look at the XR6 turbo - lower quoted RWKW than the V8 Holden, but kicks a** over the 1/4 mile. I don't have access to a dyno... How about you (Racer) stick a standard throttle body on your christmas list, set the car up on the dyno, do a run and then put standard TB on and do another. It should take about 5 minutes to swap TB's so the variations should be minimal. Upload results please.

What colour dust coat do you see me in?
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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:00 pm 
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I didn't mean it in a bad way. But you are talking about turbulance in a manifold are you for real.
I have been a auto electrician for over 23 years. I have had a 600hp fire breathing xw cleveland motor. Restored 2 ford cars from ground up.
I have been in the race seen for a long time & my mates still race. No one has ever talked about turbulance in a manifold to go faster. When i told them they all started to laugh even the engine builder how has built engines over 800hps.
Ok sorry that i have affended you but this is how i see it. Every one in ford mods swaer by pods, 3inch intakes etc. & it makes power which it does,so that is lelling you the engine is suffering air ok.
By doing all that you are still restrited by the throttle body please tell me i'm wrong. By opening the throttle body you are increasing more air flow into the engine. Which should be an add on after a 3 inch intake to make more power.
So ok then let's all of us take away this mod & take the inlet maniflod off the engines to do what.
To pay someone big bucks possible over $500+ to make 0-5 rwkw. Listen i'm all for mods & experiments & you might be right but like i said before we all drive street cars not super cars.

 

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FORD EL 4.0L. Crow cam, T.I Performance J3 Chip, Vernier cam gear, CMS stage 3 head, 68mm TB, AU head gasket + ARP studs, AU injectors, Pacey 4480, High flow cat, Shift kit, Stallie, 3:73 TrueTrac.

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:18 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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Here's somthing to think about every body.
3 inch intake = 76.2mm
Std throttle body =65mm
If every one says that the intake only makes a differance what would a throttle body do aswell.

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:44 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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When I see a back to back dyno I will sign up for the $200.
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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:05 pm 
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FordFairmont wrote:
racer wrote:
The dust coat wearer talking about turbulance in throttle bodies & manifolds get a life..


Your talking about a couple mm increase in throttle body size, that in itself is a 'minor' detail, so eveyrthing has an effect on the outcome

to sit there and say "its bigger, it works, wow what a difference, id say it measures 5kw on my a*** dyno, everyone go out and buy one"..... doesnt really make any concrete claims

i found this quote interesting, please dont bother with stupid replies, but rather discuss what looks to make more sense than what ive seen so far

Quote:
The CFM requirement of our little 4L is less than 400cfm at 6000rpm. Even at 7000rpm we're talking less than 450cfm.
This is based on 90% VE, which is a pretty serious street engine.

Standard engines are around 70%, mild engines are around 80%, and heavily modified street engines are around 90%.
Race engines can be 100% and more.

Our standard TB's flow around 550cfm.

Even at 8000rpm and 100% VE, our engines only require just over 550cfm.

Clearly a bigger TB is not needed.

All a larger TB will provide is touchier throttle, because at small throttle positions the large TB will be flowing more than a smaller unit. So we think throttle response has improved




in the interest of a good information filled discussion.

if some with one of these modified TBs could use a good quality vacuum gauge and messure any difference in manifold vacuum befor and after.

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:10 pm 
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pfft come on.. asif manifold vacuum proves anything.. you gotta get on the dyno. lol :P


-mitch

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:07 pm 
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Please under stand me. I am not sticking up for anybody. I am just saying i would rather put a bigger throttle body than modifying a inlet manifold because of turbulance.
The bigger throttle body may or maynot work in everybodies case i think it just depends on your modifictions. I was impressed just by that mod in MY case.

 

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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:56 pm 
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Racer - You still miss the point of my theorising.... Sure - you can put a three inch pipe all the way... From the information I have collected POD filters aren't a lot easier flowing than a large high flow panel filter, such as in the standard Ford air box.

Turbulence is purely complicated airflows. Think of air like water. Go and put water into a pipe with a 90 degree's tight bend and watch the water f**k about, go in circles and create bubble --- not efficient in its travel. Put it through a nice smooth 90 bend and watch its effortless travel and it will come out the other end smooth.

I know which one I'd prefer to have feeding my thirsty motor. And, without realising it, you've bought one already.

The large throttle body will mean the same amount of air doesn't have to be moving as fast - which means the engine has to do less work - but also means the air can change direction and flow around the relatively complex BBM internals.

I have already said I am keen on one of these, as I think the theory is sound. I've just worked on a theory, which so far all you've done is scoff at. I ain't bothered by you scoffing... The argument "BIGGER IS BETTER AND FASTER" is obviously the answer. No more reasoning need be entered into. That's the be all and end all... No question...


I ain't saying you should piss about with the intake manifold if you don't want to... But you should also look at the inlet manifold... Every single one Ihave pulled apart could be improved upon. Even someone with a bloody rasp and sandpaper could improve what Ford has given most of us! As discussed already, EVERY one I've pulled apart has had the original Ford gasket blocking a mm or two anyway...... If you're that keen on bigger airflow, then obviously you may want to check that too.

Do you think PORT and POLISH works? What is a port and polish? Does the polish achieve anything? The PORTING usually leaves a smoother transition for the air (as well as making the port larger...) This smooth transition means easier airflow --- Again via LESS TURBULENCE.





MITCH - I think the test, as described, would show the relative RESISTANCE of the products. For instance - testing at points along the air route would prove interesting. The snorkel is a resistance - The filter is a resistance - the piping to the throttle body is a resistance (especially in the EL with it's 90 degree sharp bend right in front of the TB) - The narrow TB is a resistance - and lastly, the manifold is a resistance.

If you could measure total vacuum pressure at all these points you would see that each stage along the way adds a little bit more effort for the poor old combustion chamber to suck air through.

By eliminating this effort (and turbulence is part of this effort) you should find a more efficient burn. This equals better fuel economy in the real world, and more RWKW in the other real world.


For us dust jacket types with pocket protectors who don't get out much, it means the theory is sound and correct.



FORD FAIRMONT --- Are you sure you don't have a choice quote regarding turbulence in air intakes?
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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:52 pm 
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fiend wrote:



MITCH - I think the test, as described, would show the relative RESISTANCE of the products. For instance - testing at points along the air route would prove interesting. The snorkel is a resistance - The filter is a resistance - the piping to the throttle body is a resistance (especially in the EL with it's 90 degree sharp bend right in front of the TB) - The narrow TB is a resistance - and lastly, the manifold is a resistance.

If you could measure total vacuum pressure at all these points you would see that each stage along the way adds a little bit more effort for the poor old combustion chamber to suck air through.




you'll find mitch was having a dig a few select people.

 

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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:04 am 
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Ah s**t. Sorry Mitch, I had my dust coat in a twist that started cutting off blood supply and therefore was taking everything far too seriously.

If I didn't type so fast, I wouldn't say so much.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:28 pm 
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What's the advantage of yours over this?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-AU-serie ... 240%3A1318
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:41 pm 
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OsbornThomas wrote:
What's the advantage of yours over this?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-AU-serie ... 240%3A1318


the ebay one doesn't have a modified shaft.
and at 69mm there would be less then 1mm of metal at the thinnest point.

68mm is good compromise between strength and size. besides support the little guy.

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:45 pm 
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ahh ok, yeah i was reading this and thought XR's had been a little more planned out, and seemed the better of the two.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Hey - FAST XR --- I found ONE of the throttle bodies today... Since it is Christmas now pretty much, I will have to wait a few days to ship it to you. No worries tho brother, it's here and accounted for.

See you're having an issue with a product available similar to yours too... See the Phenolic spacer I worked so hard on is being mannufactured by MACE and now another guy who happens to have a water cuter is producing some too. Ho hum, SUPPORT THE LITTLE GUYS I say.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:16 pm 
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fiend wrote:
Hey - FAST XR --- I found ONE of the throttle bodies today... Since it is Christmas now pretty much, I will have to wait a few days to ship it to you. No worries tho brother, it's here and accounted for.

See you're having an issue with a product available similar to yours too... See the Phenolic spacer I worked so hard on is being mannufactured by MACE and now another guy who happens to have a water cuter is producing some too. Ho hum, SUPPORT THE LITTLE GUYS I say.



you really should tell the d***head from MACE to go suck a big one.

have a search for his other posts, its a good laugh

 

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