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Advancing the timing 

 

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 Post subject: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:13 pm 
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So I want to advance the timing on my EL to the point where I have to use 98 octane. Now it's been advanced a little I think but I want to advance it some more, I hear good things if done right. Now this is where my timing is set at atm, mind you this is engine off and all:

Image

How do I tell if I advance it enough to run good but not be pinging from too much advance or lose any power? How much further should it be away? If it helps I got an EL hybrid head with a 1673 in it. And where's the 13mm (or 14mm) bolt to loosen the dizzy? I couldn't find it.

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:02 pm 
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If that's where your timing is, I'd be surprised if it's running.
Have you taken the dizzy cap off and is the rotor button pointing at 'finish'?

To set your timing correctly, you need to use a timing light and you need to put the car in base timing mode.
First I'd be checking that the harmonic balacer hasn't spun.
Get an old spark plug, gut it and weld a rod through it. Install it in the cylinder and rotate the crank by hand until it stops against this. Put a mark on the balancer at the timing indicator. Now rotate the crank the opposite way, all the way, until it stops again. Mark the balancer again. Now halfway between these two marks is actual TDC. If the original mark on the balancer is not in the middle, it has spun and needs to be replaced asap.

PS: replace your drive belt.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:19 pm 
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It's been running fine, so I have no idea why the yellow mark's to the right, are they meant to be on the left?

I haven't ever taken off the cap, so I wouldn't know, where's it meant to be pointing at?

I got a new belt ages ago but I still haven't replaced it :oops:
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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:24 pm 
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+1 on the belt...it is rather cracking.

EDIT: The mark should align with the mark on the timing case...from the image...yours is way off.

 

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EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

Last edited by phongus on Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:25 pm 
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If you haven't got the dizzy cap off, how do you know it's at TDC? That is probably just where the engine stopped when you turned it off.

If the dizzy is a Bosch one (probably is) it will have marks inside that say 'start' and 'finish'. These marks are to help you reinstall th edizzy if you ever take it out.

If you get a timing light, you won't need to worry about taking the dizzy cap off or anything. Just follow the procedure in the service manual for settng base timing and you'll be right.
When you set the timing, the mark on the balancer will line up with the indicator on the timing case.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:35 pm 
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It's not at TDC, it's just when I turned the car off last, so if I had a timing light I don't have to worry about this part yes? I should have stated this at the start that it's not at TDC. The car WAS at TDC when the timing was advanced a little initially.

Let's see if I have this right in summary...

Shorten the pins under the dash, start the car, wait 2 min or so, then connect the timing light, and turn the dizzy cap anti clockwise to advance it? Have I got these steps right or close to it?
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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Where the mark is then, bears absolutley no relevance to what your timing is set at.
The engine will stop in a different spot each time.

Yeah, the basics sound about right.

Take out your airbox to get easier access to the 13mm bolt that clamps the dizzy down.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:48 pm 
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So the engine doesn't have to be at TDC when using a timing light yes (manual doesn't state so)? From watching a video on Youtube, after 2 minutes the ecu should go into timing mode, and the marks will (almost) line up. Is this when I advance the timing?
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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Yeah, that's when you adjust it.

Be careful how much you adjust it as the ECU also uses the dizzy position to trigger the injectors. Changing the spark timing too much might affect how well the injector timing lines up with valve opening events.

At most I reckon you would only want to advance it about 5 degrees. You will need to estimate that as there is only the one marking on the timing case and balancer.

It's not going to magically make your car run a 13 second 1/4 mile, but it will feel a little more lively in the low to mid range.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:08 pm 
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I hear 4 degrees advanced does the trick for some people on here? It's what i'm after actually, some more power down low until the 1673 kicks in, as I only have stock gears and stall for now.

Just so I have this right, no matter where the mark is when the engine's off, when the timing light is connected and gets into the timing mode, the 2 marks will align just about next to eachother, yes?

I think I have enough info on here now to give this a go, thanks for the help MAD.
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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:23 pm 
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your confusing the hell out of me, now lets start at the basics, put it into diagnostic mode with the engine in 1 piece and in full running order.. wait 2 minutes for it to drop into diagnostic mode, (will hear the engine change the rpm and sound of the engine will change for no reason at all other than it has dropped into diag mode)
timing light should already be set up, now the marking on your el timing case should line up perfectly with the mark on the balancer every time #1 spark plug lead ignites the #1 plug(#1 is the cylinder closest to the front of the engine) provided your timings set to the factory spec already and the balancer hasent slipped, now once its there your going to have to know how far approx 1 degree is (its quite a small almount only a bees d**k lol) and only go a couple degrees, take it out of diagnostic mode and take it for a run, if it doesnt ping and goes a little better, then good work :D , if it pings take it back a little, if it doesnt ping you could try your luck with a little more but dont get too generous with it or you may have a problem with pinging when the engine gets hot under load.
i was actually considering putting a few degrees in mine the other day when i bought a light, i checked the base timing and it seemed to be set at the factory setting still so i didnt bother playing with it.

 

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Last edited by bry40l on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Tech90 wrote:
I hear 4 degrees advanced does the trick for some people on here? It's what i'm after actually, some more power down low until the 1673 kicks in, as I only have stock gears and stall for now.

Just so I have this right, no matter where the mark is when the engine's off, when the timing light is connected and gets into the timing mode, the 2 marks will align just about next to eachother, yes?

I think I have enough info on here now to give this a go, thanks for the help MAD.


Yes, the lines "should" (emphasis) line up. If they don't then either your balancer has slipped or something is out. Once in timing mode, adjust the distributor slowly...I suggest you have the socket still connected to the distributor retaining bolt with a long extension running through the BBM and out the top, that way when you have set up the timing where you want it, you can quickly tighten the bolt up a little just in case it moves.

I think mine is advanced a little...can't remember how much though.

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:27 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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phongus wrote:
Tech90 wrote:
I hear 4 degrees advanced does the trick for some people on here? It's what i'm after actually, some more power down low until the 1673 kicks in, as I only have stock gears and stall for now.

Just so I have this right, no matter where the mark is when the engine's off, when the timing light is connected and gets into the timing mode, the 2 marks will align just about next to eachother, yes?

I think I have enough info on here now to give this a go, thanks for the help MAD.


Yes, the lines "should" (emphasis) line up. If they don't then either your balancer has slipped or something is out. Once in timing mode, adjust the distributor slowly...I suggest you have the socket still connected to the distributor retaining bolt with a long extension running through the BBM and out the top, that way when you have set up the timing where you want it, you can quickly tighten the bolt up a little just in case it moves.

I think mine is advanced a little...can't remember how much though.

yes i forgot to say, an extension is the best way to get to the retaining bolt
edit: clean the balancer and timing case, the amount of s**t on there is unbelievable, unless im the only one who gernies their engine every few months :shock:

 

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xr8 snorkel,typhoon lower snorkel,territory intake pipe,20% underdrive kit,pacemaker extractors,high flow cat,xforce exhaust,t56 conversion hd turbo clutch/ flywheel,m86 3.45 lsd,custom tune187.1rwkw as an auto

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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:33 pm 
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I haven't cleaned the engine since I bought it last year, I haven't gotten to wash it out or the car for a while now :/

Both of you guy's inputs have been helpful, despite me being a total noob at this.
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 Post subject: Re: Advancing the timing
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:48 pm 
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afaik you cant adjust the timing on a el as its controlled by the ecu, i advanced the timing on mine and it did s**t all, now its back to 0 degrees.

on a ea eb ed you can advance it, without the ecu interfering

 

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