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BBM vs LOG - The old debate 

 

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 Post subject: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:58 am 
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Right!!!

This topic has been argued back and forth a number of times in the past.


IMPORTANT - I would like members to consider the following factors regarding my Wagon and my own impressions of how it is currently.

Engine - EL 4.0L GLi spec unopened 126rwkw
Transmission - EA T5
ECU - EL Ghia Auto - Resistor Trick
Manifold - Log
Fuel Reg - XR 300kpa
Injectors - EL
Intake - XH Snorkle - EA Flex Pipe

In the above configuration it pulls strongly up to 5600rpm. At partial throttle in every day driving between 1500 and 3000rpm, there is a noticeable hesitation/flat spot. I attribute this to a mismatch of the log manifold to the EL Ghia ECUs spark and fuel maps being designed to work with the BBM.

1. I would like hear from members who have converted from Log to BBM, and for them to relate their impressions of the differences between the two.

2. I would also like to hear from members regarding their opinion of which manifold is better and WHY they believe their choice is better.

3. Please recommend which manifold would be better suited to my application and why.

Lets have some reasoned respones here, and minimise the flaming please.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:27 am 
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This will make for an interesting read BenJ, its good that you brought it up :wink:. I am also wondering which manifold flows best and any advantages using the log over the BBM and vice versa as i want to buy a boxcar in the future - so this thread may come in handy :lol:

From what i know the BBM increases low down torque due to it having the longer runners at low rpm then the short runners activating at higher rpm (think it switches at 3800rpm iirc?), so at a guess id say this would be better for street driving as you'd be driving around at fairly low revs due to speed limits and such. MRE-50L is running an ED log manifold one on his EL Fairmont 5 speed and reckons it flows better. But seeing as the car it built more or less for top end power that may be the reason he's running the log and not needing the extra low down torque the BBM provides.

Id say your right about the mismatch in the EL ecu and log manifold causing the flat spot (although there are other things that can cause flat spots but probably not the case), the ecu probably has different mapping to suit the BBM's long runners at low rpm and when it ECU senses that the rpm is getting near the switch over point that the BBM has the power starts to come on

EDIT: forgot to recommend one lol and had the runners around the wrong way, id go the BBM manifold since you have the EL ecu, it may fix the flatspot issue you have, plus it should be a little bit better for a daily street driven car with the extra low down pull

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:33 am 
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No doubt you have read these prior but here they are for other members;

ford-4l-and-6-cylinder-f1/broadand-manifold-vs-log-questions-t52811.html?hilit=bbm vs log

ford-4l-and-6-cylinder-f1/ea-d-intake-mainfold-vs-bbm-t41826.html?hilit=bbm vs log

But I ask you this, Didn't you ran the BBM setup in the sedan?


1. Never did it was going to do it on the old eb but read a few things about related to various people converting from log to bbm and finding it to prefor "crap".

2. My opinion if you are running the ecu and alike, why not put the bbm gear on.

3. Well if you are thinking of pissing off the LPG setup I say put the BBM on, but if you are keen to keep the LPG retain the log as I have been told it suits the lpg setup better.

Also Log vs BBM is something like ED vs EL car debate. But with the BBM do you automatically gain 19 or kilowatt. as the ED is 142 and EL s 153 (can't recall figures but I am close).

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:13 pm 
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The Broadband Manifold produces 9KW more power, over the log manifold.

97 XH UTE- EL Engine with Log Manifold= 148kw@4900rpm
353nM@3000rpm
9.3:1 compression ratio

97 EL Sedan-El engine with BBM= 157kw@4900rpm
357nM@3000rpm
9.3:1 compression ratio


Comparison 94 ED Sedan- ED engine with log manifold= 148kw@4500rpm
348nM@3750rpm
8.8:1 compression ratio

Cheers and have a nice day :mrgreen:

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:39 pm 
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After driving with log manifold for 12 years, I'm impressed with the throttle response from the BBM I'm using now. I can see why Ford retained it after the EFs. The log manifold seemed to be sluggish down low, especially with an auto. It's also easier to work on hoses, wiring & the distributor with the BBM.

Ben, have you tried temporarily swapping the EL ECU for an ED ECU to see if it fixes the flat spot?

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 2:53 pm 
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In comparing stock spark maps, there is a huge difference @ the bbm switch point. If running a log manifold on an EL, you'd want to tune this out via a J3 or aftermarket ECU to get the most from it, otherwise you're in a pretty badly compromised situation. The opposite is running a BBM on an EA-ED ECU and having lean pinging issues @ the bbm switch point.

Jason
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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:10 pm 
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just get a ECU out of a 97/98 XH UTE, problem solved.

 

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Intake: FRAM AIRHOG , EL GT snorkel
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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:59 pm 
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leave the log on there ben :P

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:14 pm 
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the thing i have noticed is the log manifold ports are about 3mm smaller compared to the bbm..
log manifold =39mm ports and bbm is about 42mm/43mm..

so maybe air speed is the factor?? smaller ports = higher air speed??

i think if you want the best of both worlds (torque and good top end) i would go bbm to match the ecu maps... :)
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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Hey all.

Some interesting replies there.

Froudey, thanks for those links. Had a good read of them.

I think that this dyno graph is the best way to visualise the difference between the two manifolds.

The thick line is an EF XR6 and the dotted line is an ED XR6.

Image

This clearly shows that max power, is very similar, but it is the low down torque of the BBM that is impressive. Which as stated in a couple of replies, is what you want in an every day driver.

While it may be possible via a J3 chip to tune the spark and fuel maps to work with the log, I am of the opinion that the extra torque of the BBM would be beneficial, even with the addition of a cam in the future.

It is worth noting, that I did run the BBM previously on this engine, when it was in my Red EB Sedan. However, it had an Auto and a 3.45 ratio LSD, which gives a very different seat of the pants feel to how it delivers on the road. My BBM and intake setup is pictured below, and includes the XR 300kpa fuel pressure reg, which is a different fitment on a BBM compared to a Log version.

It also is made up of an EL upper section, a 3" intake pipe, and an EF airbox lid with trumpet.

Image

There are also speed holes cut in the side of the lower half of the airbox.

So far I am 90% sure I will be installing the BBM soon.

Cheers
BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Your running an auto ecu still? From my understanding, when using the resistor trick; the ecu thinks it is in "park" and does not use the oxygen sensor and only has one map....

If this is correct, it may explain abit....If its not correct, please post and let me know!!

Simon

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Hey,

I will chime in and say that from a performance view, the BBM would be better than the log, think about it, Why would ford down-grade the intake, they wouldnt!!, ergo, the "you beaut BBM"..

I believe the log is better suited to forced induction set-up's.......so if you dont want the added expense of a custom plenum ( unless you make your own :wink: ) the log will suffice.....

Cheers

8-) Daz 8-)

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:34 pm 
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It has been tricked to believe it is Neutral, not Park, and I have not heard of it not using the Oxy Sensor.

Numerous members have done this successfully, and have correct AFRs still.

BenJ

 

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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Simon L wrote:
Your running an auto ecu still? From my understanding, when using the resistor trick; the ecu thinks it is in "park" and does not use the oxygen sensor and only has one map....

If this is correct, it may explain abit....If its not correct, please post and let me know!!

Simon


the ecu will think the car is in neutral with the resister trick and the ecu also uses the oxygen sensor at idle so thats not true..
although the ecu thinks its in neutral it also uses the map sensor,tps and vehicle speed sensor to get input on engine load and vehicle speed to determine open and closed loop modes..
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 Post subject: Re: BBM vs LOG - The old debate
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:17 pm 
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For an XH, a BBM, replace the ED cam with an EF/EL one, and an EL ECU, is the best performance for the money mod you can do IMO. Mine had noticeably more pull in the 50 - 80 kmh area.
EL__Fairmont wrote:
just get a ECU out of a 97/98 XH UTE, problem solved.
Not entirely - his EF/EL climate control will report E6,E7 & E8 errors.

 

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