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big bottom end knock 

 

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 Post subject: big bottom end knock
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:22 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

Hey I've just finished refurbishing a motor for my EB II (welch plugs, rear main seal, sump gasket and many other things) I literally just got the motor in the car an hour ago and when I started it up I died inside as I witnessed the loudest ******* knocking I've ever heard in my life. It makes no sense at all, 3 weeks ago the motor was driving in another car (which I drove back from across the city) it has only 190 000km and it ran like glass, by far the best motor I'd come across in an e-series, and now it sounds like a tractor.. I also checked compression just incase before pulling it out and they were all a perfect 200psi. It's ridiculous it shouldn't be knocking I must have the worst luck ever with this car.

http://youtu.be/2JHiw0_lk7g
http://youtu.be/J6tvDhbx01o

First thing I did was check the dust cover inspection plate on the bellhousing but nope I removed that and it didn't change a thing, it sounds like it's coming from the bottom end/head area but I can't really pinpoint it for sure, somewhere in the motor. Maybe piston slap or possibly something in the sump interfering? I took the sump off to replace the gasket but can't see how anything there could've went back on wrong to cause this.. I'm really hoping I don't have to pull it all out again but I'm not optimistic.

Makes no sense how a perfectly fine motor in pristine condition can just develop a major knock like that.

Does anyone have any ideas haha?

The knocking almost sounds like somethings hitting/interfering rather than loose/let go
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Ride: ford falcon au3 xr8

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wow, that's a loud knock. did you do up flywheel bolts tight? or torque converter bolts?

does it have oil pressure?
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:18 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

yeah sure is loud it sounds like a jack hammer in real life!! I made sure all those bolts were torqued correctly and also marked the wheels before removing them. It has to be something there or in the sump as those are the only 2 things I tampered with since pulling it out the car :? I also replaced the engine mounts if they had play or were loose the problem could lie there, I can't remember but I think I took a note of the oil pressure being fine but I'll check tomorrow when I have another crack at it. Hope to god the motor gearbox doesn't have to come out

I'm really hoping it isn't something major busted in the bottom end, it sounds more like somethings making contact on something, you'd think in the bellhousing somewhere. I'm hoping it's an easy fix haha
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:03 am 
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I can't listen at work, but clutch plate in backwards?

 

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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:17 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

nah still does it with the plate removed unfortunately seems to be something bigger it the sound is exactly like it would be hitting the plate or as though it has no oil in it.

I just started it up again and it's got oil pressure (and the pressure moves/sits like normal) so no problems there.

I removed the fuel pump relay and cranked it (as you would a compression test) and the noise isn't there at all which I took as a good sign, assuming this means the crank isn't hitting the sump.

I'm going to pull the rocker cover and see if there's any oil getting to the head but it will probably be fine. Has to be something in the bellhousing like torque converter bolts.. they're all tight maybe I aligned the converter wrong somehow is that possible?

I think i'll check all my tools as well just to make sure I'm not missing any lol just incase!
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:02 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EF XR6 Wagon, AU2 XR6 VCT

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I was apparently a bit heavy-handed putting my EF engine back in. Found out later that I somehow bent/cracked the nose of the torque converter. Was fine for a long time, but eventually the flex of the torque converter corkscrewing around ended up cracking the flex plate, making a loud noise. Don't know if this helps.

 

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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:12 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

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Yeah mate this may be it haha I'm pretty sure now the knocks coming from the bellhousing. I just pulled every lead as well one by one and the knock didn't disappear. Is it possible to see the nose through the cover plate or do I need to remove the box? I'm assuming i'll have to remove it anyway but would be better not to! cheers
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:45 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

ok it might be low oil I just checked the auto dipstick and it's dry, it was well above full before I started the car last night as i changed the filter and put 4L of 95LE fluid in it. I just put another liter in and it was 1/4 full, started it again and the dispticks dry again but i got no more fluid until I can hitch a lift to the shops later on.

I guess this at least means the pump for the gear fluid is working? I don't get why it's taken 5L already and is still dry the converter must've drained when I removed it somehow as they're only meant to take 4L. I wonder how low it actually is I'm guessing this would explain the knocking lol the converter must be dry.
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:23 pm 
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a completely dry box takes 12 litres of fluid.. just hope the damage hasn't already been done?
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:47 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

hmmm i didn't drain the converter so I thought I only needed 4L but it's just taken another whole 3L and is finally full... looks like something is damaged or something in the bellhousing is interefering.

kicking myself for not rechecking the level straight after starting it I assumed the converter was full sigh. Does that mean the box is stuffed what is it likely in it I've damaged? I'm still hoping it's something in the bellhousing but it's definitely not the bolts I rechecked the converter before (and the flywheel ones were done up solid with loctite), only thing left in there could be the starter motor interfering or a fractured wheel/converter.

edit: The other thing is the knock was instantaneous from the moment I first started the car, the pan was full of fluid and would've been sucked dry by the converter in a matter of seconds but the knock was still there beforehand, from the very first second, so it can't be damage from lack of fluid?? unless I was supposed to pre-fill the converter with fluid before starting??

Very certain something interfering in the bellhousing just as though they would if the cover plate was put on backwards, but there's not much else in there besides the bolts, starter motor? fractured parts? hoping I can figure it out without having to pull the box hopefuly.
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:34 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

ugh I think I've fudged putting the converter back on properly or the gearbox to motor, input shaft could even be corssthreaded and chewing out (the knock doesnt sound like it's chewing thank god) I bolted the converter bolts up before the bellhousing bolts and just heard this can put it out of alignment, also was told the converter is supposed to slide back/align a special way and even make a clicking noise when it's correctly over the pump :? f*ck you Gregory's, I did the fywheel, then the converter bolts straight after, then connected the gearbox to the motor so maybe it isn't aligned correctly, hoping there's no damage!

Last edited by ILLaViTaR on Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:42 pm 
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What car was the other motor out of?

Did you use your original gearbox and Convertor?

Yes you should bolt up the bellhousing before doing the convertor bolts to the ring gear.
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Torque convertors don't knock unless they are loose somehow.....like a broken spigot, cracked flexplate, loose bolts for either flexplate or convertor, bent/buckled flexplate, broken tranny oil pump gears, broken snout drive tabs.....etc.

 

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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:19 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

hmmm would the converter be loose if I installed it incorrectly over the pump? It might not be meshed to the pump or something? When bolting it back onto the flex plate I just pulled it forward enough to reach the plate, but now I've read it's meant to click on the shaft/over the pump a special way, I didn't align it at all.

The motor is from another EBII I've picked up as a wreck it's in pretty good nic with only 190 000k's I drove it back across melbourne 3 weeks ago flawlessly. The gearbox/flex plate/converter are also from the same car and I also marked the flex plate before removing to ensure it went back on the right way.

I'm going to go out and start dropping the box I think I need to take the converter off and reseat it correctly on the shaft/pump and if there's any other problems they should come up as well hopefully! but is there a chance I can reseat the converter with the box still in the car? I know if I unbolt the converter from the flex plate through the inspection plate hole there's a little bit of room for the converter to slide back maybe enough for me to reseat it on the shaft without having to remove the box.

The other thing is when I turn the car over (fuel pump relay disconnected) the knock isn't there, so wouldn't that rule out warped/cracked flex plate and loose bolts and possibly even anything mechanical in the bellhousing? Very strange that it doesn't knock when it's turning over, just when running :? Maybe the converter is slipping on the input shaft? I haven't driven it in gear yet I'm too afraid too! cheers guys
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 Post subject: Re: big bottom end knock
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:40 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: 1992 EBII Fairmont

Location: Aga
VIC, Australia

some scary comments I've found in search

hot-04l - "yeah,make sure when u put converter in gearbox that you rotate converter and push inwards until the converter sorta clicks and aligns with the pump in your box,if you don't do this you will bust something no risk.hope this helps!!!"

joshannon.7 - "Oh and when it comes time to reatatch be sure to bolt the bell housing to the engine first. i had a motor rebuilt a few yrs back and the idiot decided to do up the bolts on the torque convertor first. pulled the tranny out of alignment and as soon as it was put into drive the trans chewed the s**t out of itself. i got less the 200m up the road. Bloke at the trans joint said i should punch the bloke who put the motor in fair in the mouth for such an amatureish mistake.

Still knocking noise sounds more like a bolt being hit every revolution rather than metal being chewed out so it's very confusing indeed. It's also worth noting I never removed the converter from the shaft, just slid it back and forward.
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