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EF valvetrain noise 977B 

 

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 Post subject: EF valvetrain noise 977B
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:34 am 
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Ok i decided to make my own thread here and stop hijacking other threads, and use all the details i can to help solve the problem because im out of ideas.

Ill try keep it as short as possible-

Car is 1994 EF XR6 with 200,000kms. ran fine and was quiet of any unusual noise. Leaking head gasket.

So head was removed, shaved 20thou and AU gasket was used. At the same time, a new timing chain was fitted and a chain guide was replaced. Also i fitted a new cam (wade 977B), and when the extra shims were fitted the nylon retainers broke, instead of getting the retainers i got a whole set of new Lifters from Prescision Engineering in Sydney. Car goes back together and on start up there is the expected lifter noise, which dies down after 10 mins or so but is still there. Car is very noise when driven above 2000RPM which i thought was timing chain. After a few minutes of driving and no change i fiddled with the tensioner for the chain thinking it wasn't in properly. After i thought i had it noise was still tehr so took it to my mechanic after a day or two more of fiddling, and he said there was tappet noise aswell. So i said fix that while your at it. The chain noise was fixed pretty easily but they had troubles with the tappets. They had an engineer come out and look at it and he said the extra shims for the cam neede to come out, they called me i said no (after some fordmods consultation) but they had already done it. I picked the car up and he said there was low oil pressure, and the lifter noise was still there. So i took the car home fitted the shims back, bled the lifters and put them back in only to find the noise was still there.

I now am clueless as to what to do and im sick of the car sounding like crap.

Would the AU gasket and the 20thou contribute somehow, does the AU gasket block any oil galleries, it has less holes than the block does i noticed.

Low oil pressure, unsure if it was low before but there was no lifter issues so why now all of a sudden, 15W-40 weight oil used as usual with new oil. Clogged oil filter?

Faulty lifters? How do i tell if a lifter is good when i take them out of the car, they are all rock solid unless i put them in a vice and squeeze the oil out. they look the slightest bit shorter than the stock ones i found at the wreckers unfortunalty the old lifters (working fine) were stupidly thrown out so i cant put them back in to eliminate the new tappets as the problem. If i wer to get some from the wreckers how do you tell if they are servicable or not?

Shims are in the right way, rocker arms are free from crap inside

Thats it sorry for being such an essay but if i put down everything maybe someone can spot something. i followed my gregories service manual to the letter when doing all work, trouble is once you get into new regrind cams and more shims it helps you less...

Cheers

 

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F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way.

Now sold :( Cobalt blue EF XR6, Pacemaker 4499s, 2.5" redback catback, intake, head shaved, wade 977b, crow valve springs, pedders suspension.

Last edited by bennomate on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:16 am 
Getting Side Ways
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the oil pressure could point to a number of things, worn out of spec bearings, fked oil pump the mere fact that you have low oil pressure could simply mean its not getting to the hla's properley and therfore creating noise



q1. if you still have the old cam chuck it in and see if theres any change

q2.what kind of noise are you hearing? exactally

q3.did you drive it at all before the head was worked on, was it the same noise?

 

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Crank Assembly balanced, HV oil pump, ACL Trimetal bearings, "1 extra oil clearance taking to around 0.0650-0.0700 on mains and big ends, Moly rings,, Xr6 Cam, POD ( Possibly oversize injectors), Block, Head, Timing cover, belt idler, Alternator,painted in ford light blue

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:34 am 
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I know its unlikley but could you have covered (or partially covered) an oil hole when you put the new gasket in?
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:42 pm 
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With the lifters, submerse them in oil compressed then uncompress them in the oil, this will allow them to suck up some oil.

When I did my head, I had one lifter that wouldn't shut up, took the rocker cover off, spanner on the crank, then check each lifter with the valve closed, the noisy one was soon found, much more clearance and play than the rest, swapped it out and no more noises.
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Shifteh wrote:



q1. if you still have the old cam chuck it in and see if theres any change

q2.what kind of noise are you hearing? exactally

q3.did you drive it at all before the head was worked on, was it the same noise?


1. Unfortunatly the old cam was butchered when we had to grind off the head bolts. Left the old cam in to protect the journels. I wanted to keep the stock cam.

2. Its a tap tap tap tap noise, which gets faster with revvs, untill the tapping is many times a second almost like a loud rattle above 2000-3000RPM. Pretty sure its not chain though because the tapping is present at idle and no rattle.

3. I owned the car now for nearly two years and there was never any noise like it, apart from 5 seconds after start up on a cold morning or after an oil change. but it was there for the first time constantly after the car was worked on. Which is why i was thinking a low oil prssure tat caused the tappets not to work was a bit of a coincidence when there was enough oil pressure for them to work before i did the head and cam.

dsyfer wrote:
With the lifters, submerse them in oil compressed then uncompress them in the oil, this will allow them to suck up some oil.

When I did my head, I had one lifter that wouldn't shut up, took the rocker cover off, spanner on the crank, then check each lifter with the valve closed, the noisy one was soon found, much more clearance and play than the rest, swapped it out and no more noises.


I didnt do that the first time but after it made the noise i pulled them all out and did what you describe, made no difference unfortunatly. that was about a week ago. Ill try rotating it with a spanner and see if i can find one with any play.

 

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F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way.

Now sold :( Cobalt blue EF XR6, Pacemaker 4499s, 2.5" redback catback, intake, head shaved, wade 977b, crow valve springs, pedders suspension.

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Can you put an oil pressure gauge on it to find out exactly how much pressure there is?

Basicly what you are dealing with is valve spring pressure vs: oil pressure.
You've put a bigger cam in which even with stock springs will increase the full lift spring pressure as it lifts higher. When you add in a stiffer valve spring you have more pressure again.
If you have low oil pressure there simply is no chance at keeping oil in the HLAs.

The oil will always take the path of least resistance, In this case thats probably main and big end bearings.

Th au gasket wont be the problem, the holes that are blocked are water passages, they are made this way to divert water to where it needed.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:33 pm 
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tickford_6 wrote:
Can you put an oil pressure gauge on it to find out exactly how much pressure there is?

Basicly what you are dealing with is valve spring pressure vs: oil pressure.
You've put a bigger cam in which even with stock springs will increase the full lift spring pressure as it lifts higher. When you add in a stiffer valve spring you have more pressure again.
If you have low oil pressure there simply is no chance at keeping oil in the HLAs.

The oil will always take the path of least resistance, In this case thats probably main and big end bearings.


Ahh i see. thanks thats pretty helpful. Makes alot of sence then. I dont have an actual pressure guage to connect but the mechanic i took it to took a reading, and ill quote the report: TESTED OIL PRESSURE FOUND 15-20 AT IDLE AT OPERATING TEMP AND 50-35@3000RPM. Those readings im guessing are PSI. My manual says min pressure at operating temp is 280KPA@2000RPM which is ~40PSI.

 

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F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way.

Now sold :( Cobalt blue EF XR6, Pacemaker 4499s, 2.5" redback catback, intake, head shaved, wade 977b, crow valve springs, pedders suspension.

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:39 am 
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oil pressure isn't your problem. A little low at idle, but nothing to worry about.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:18 am 
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re: oil pressure. what oil filter you got on it ?..
i noticed with ryco or a K&N filter my pressure gauge was reading lower .(ef xr6)
i put a motorcraft 1 in & have decent readings now .

not sure if this could be your problem .?
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:57 am 
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Both RYCO & MOTOCRAFT are made by GUD products.The RYCO filters go down the production line one way to get painted grey,the MOTOCRAFT ones head off in another direction to be painted white.And they're probably now all made offshore like everything else today we buy for spares!

:roll:
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:13 am 
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Outback Blue wrote:
Both RYCO & MOTOCRAFT are made by GUD products.The RYCO filters go down the production line one way to get painted grey,the MOTOCRAFT ones head off in another direction to be painted white.And they're probably now all made offshore like everything else today we buy for spares!

:roll:


thats actually not true, if you put them side by side there is a noticeable difference
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:58 am 
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TROYMAN wrote:
Outback Blue wrote:
Both RYCO & MOTOCRAFT are made by GUD products.The RYCO filters go down the production line one way to get painted grey,the MOTOCRAFT ones head off in another direction to be painted white.And they're probably now all made offshore like everything else today we buy for spares!

:roll:


thats actually not true, if you put them side by side there is a noticeable difference

Very true, the Z9 and the AFL1 are very different.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if GUD did make both filters, they would just be made to different specs.

There are only a hand full of filter manufacturers, and there is alot of re-branding.

 

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:46 pm 
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ryco & motorcraft may be made in the same factory .? like many things these days.
but there is a difference .imo .
ive used ryco in all my cars ,but for some reason ,strange reason i dont know ,my xr6 dont like em .lol.
the K&N was not good on cold start up for about 5min .? not sure why .
since putting a motorcraft 1 in ive had no issues with the gauge dropping .

as for the lifter noise,you havent got to much clearance after skimming the head ,& a thinner gasket ,?
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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:17 am 
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Agh seriously, its been two months and ive still got this F**K rattle.. im ready to throw this car of a bridge. Its not the tappets ive pretty much ruled them out by putting a second set in, genuine ford (slightly used) but in good condition. If it was tappets the noise would have atleast changed.

Im leaning towards chain rattle to do with the big ish cam? ive heard a little about chain rattle just because you have a bigger cam is that true? I think my next move will be to put a stock cam in it. But im gunna hate sacrificing the power from the car :(

 

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F6 Typhoon Silhouette with Dark Argent rims, build P0001. Stock as a rock and staying that way.

Now sold :( Cobalt blue EF XR6, Pacemaker 4499s, 2.5" redback catback, intake, head shaved, wade 977b, crow valve springs, pedders suspension.

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 Post subject: Re: EF Valvetrain Noise after 977B install and au Head gasket
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:02 am 
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where abouts in Sydney are you, there may be a member close by who is happy to stick their head under your bonnet to help you diagnose further.

 

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