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EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual 

 

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 Post subject: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:11 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

My EL isn't driving too good (uses heaps of fuel and just generally drives like crap), and after years of "putting up with it" I'm going to try and have a crack at fixing it.

I want to try and test an auto ecu in the car as I suspect I have an issue with my one.
It is a factory manual 98' EL gli with obviously a manual ecu.

Finding a manual ecu to test with is proving to be quite expensive in my local area (read - tight a** trying to buy a first home). However, auto ecu's are worth nothing and are far easier to find.
Does anyone know if there is an easy way to make one work in the car? At least well enough to drive up and down the road to see if mine is faulty?

 

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98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:35 pm 
Fordmods Junkie
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

What makes you suspect the ECU? What has been replaced/repaired/checked prior to your conclusion?

When you say it runs like crap, how so? Is it idling rough, does it lack power, etc?

If you give us a history of the car, that would help forum members diagnose possible issues.

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:04 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Age: 23

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Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

Hey mate,
thanks for the reply.

I was originally going to post more info but I didn't want to bore people with a long post. Thought I'd better keep it short and to the point, however seeing as you asked, I will provide.


Problem
So to keep a long story short. I bought the car 6 years ago and it ran pretty well, seemed to have heaps of power for a stock car, but it did have the slow isc issue (still does now too).

More recently, the car started using water and refused to start. So I pulled it off the road and went about changing the headgasket over. I took it to a machining shop and they found that the head was cracked in two places too bad to be salvageable. So I said goodbye to the EL motor and went about installing a standard AU II motor. I found one that had only done 77k and picked it up for $300. I had a mate weld the sump to fit the EL k frame and went about installing the motor. All went well after I found the reason it wouldn't start in the first place was because the hall effect sensor had given up. One new distributor later and she was off.

It drove pretty well, had a little more torque, a nicer throatier tone to it and just worked. A couple months in however it started doing all of the same crap that the original motor was doing, only worse.

By worse, I mean I get 350kms out of a full tank of 98 with average driving, and to show for it I get a car that struggles to make it up inclines like the gateway bridge for those that live in brissy. It really bogs down starting from a standstill - standstills on hills are the worst, I need to stay in 1st until 30, 2nd until 50 before I change to 3rd otherwise I get stuck and have to start my way through the gears again.
It struggles to tow a medium size trailer empty, and just generally lacks any sort of balls. By that I mean in the wet I can clutch dump at 4000rpm and it will break traction for about 1 second before it drops right down and grips up again. I'm running 235mm re003's which have grip, but not thaaat much grip.

So basically, it drove better with a cracked head than it does now. The spark plugs also have a heap of black gunk on them, but it doesn't use oil. (I actually can't tell anymore, it has sprung an oil leak and I can't tell whats leaking and what may be getting burnt - It never did before it started leaking though)
All of this changes after about 3000rpm (usually). After then, it seems to drive just fine with plenty of punch. Also, it doesn't ping.


Trial and Error
I have compression tested it and all cylinders were pretty even, but not super high results. Either 165ish or 170ish wet if I remember correctly (this was a while ago)
I did a code read on the ECU last night and it came up with 111.
So all seems to be well as far as the ECU is concerned.

Replaced
02 sensor
MAP sensor
IAT sensor
Coolant sensor
ISC solenoid
Distributor
Ignition Coil
Spark plugs
HT leads
TPS

As far as I know, I have set all of these things correctly. One thing to note though is that the car drives exactly the same whether or not the 02 sensor is plugged in.
I have measured the 02 sensor with my voltmeter at the ecu pins and it appears to work properly. It seems to go into closed loop just fine and the car doesn't blow any smoke at all ever.
Also, the map sensor when electrically unplugged seems to allow the revs to drop quicker and the car sounds throatier but makes no immediate difference to drive-ability.

The reason I suspect the ECU is because having changed so many sensors so many times, it is either a wiring fault somewhere or the ECU itself.
The car runs rich, smells bad, drives poorly, and unplugging sensors doesn't seem to change things, as well as it has no codes, not even in memory. I've thought about putting it on a dyno just to see the afr's and its actual power output but as a guess I would say it is making something under 100kw at the wheels, and I don't really feel like picking up the pieces off the dyno floor. :lol:

 

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98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:47 am 
Fordmods Junkie
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

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Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

Sounds like you covered a lot to figure this thing out!

Have you checked for a vacuum leak? Get some start you bastard or similar and spray around the intake.

Also have you checked the fuel side of things? Fuel pump, internal fuel filter bag, external fuel filter, injectors and fuel regulator? A bad injector could be spitting in fuel, rather than spraying it in, so you will go through a bit of fuel. Could also be leaking fuel some where?

Have you checked your BBM butterfly vacuum switch? It could be stuck/broken giving you poor down low torque. I believe the switch activates at 3800RPM or something. Located at the front of the BBM.

How is the PCV on the rocker? It could be failing and sucking in oil into the manifold causing you to burn oil. This could also explain the black spark plugs.

Just a few things worth checking

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:21 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

Hey mate,
I haven't checked vacuum for leaks recently, but last time I did there were not any and it still ran this way. (I will check again though)

As for fuel, I can hear the pump whirring away when running, but the cap for the tank is so tight I'm worried I'll break it trying to get it off to check inside. (Any tips on how to check fuel pressure?)
I have checked the diaphragm on the fuel regulator for leaks and it made no difference.
Fuel filter (external) has been replaced.
I have used 3 different sets of injectors that have yielded the same results. (1 set of El's and 2 sets of Au ones. All diy bench tested.

As for the bbm, I have visually seen the valve operate at 3800 rpm and also tried it locked shut and open to see if it was an intermittent problem. This made no difference.

As for the pcv valve, I have used 3 different ones. 1 original, 1 metal and one plastic. None were faulty and the ball moved freely. I have a catch can inline with the current plastic pcv valve, however the car drives the same with or without the catch can.

I have also tried heat range 5 & 6 spark plugs to see if it would change the blackness on them in hopes they would burn excess oil/fuel.
The gunk is definitely blaaaack and sort of wet looking. Similar to what you would expect for oil burning. Yet it blows no smoke.

Thanks for replying mate.

 

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98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:06 pm 
Fordmods Junkie
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

I'm running out of ideas.

Exhaust still good? Not blocked at the cat or something?

Regarding the fuel pump access, you will either need a special tool to remove the cap or hammer and a small bar (I use a T-bar) and hammer at it to get it undone. When you remove it, it is a good idea to replace the O-ring while you're at it, just in case it is cactus when you remove it and when you put the screw back on, it won't seal properly and you will lose petrol when you overfill it. Remove the steel retaining ring first before you try to remove the plastic capping though.

Sorry can't help you with the fuel pressure, I just unplug the fuel return line and make sure there is good flow back into the tank. If it's enough or not I am not sure.

It sounds like you have most things covered in regards to fuel and since you it seems to be okay after 3000 RPM, fuel might be okay.

Going back to your original question with the ECU, you could plug the ECU in and see if it will turn over, just make sure the car is in neutral. The thermofans will ne constantly on though if you plan on trying it as the ECU will think the "Auto" transmission is over heating. However I am sure someone will chime in as I am not 100% sure if it will work or not.

 

_________________

phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:00 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Joined: 3rd Jan 2005

Ride: AU XR6 with BF Turbo engine

Location: Sydney
NSW, Australia

what MAP sensor are you running as the AU and El are different

 

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RIP :( 1x confused Falcon..EL Falcon with full AU running gear...VCT, 5 speed, IRS, AUII front suspension, brakes, and steering RIP

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:18 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

phongus - Exhaust was completely remade at the beginning of last year, and the car has been running poorly through 3 exhaust configurations. But, too that point, it was first noticeable after the exhaust was first done. I guess having more power made it feel more noticeable in low spots :?

Before it all started to get really bad, it would drive perfectly, but every now and then you would put the foot down to say merge lane or something. It would start to move pretty well, then it would get to 1800rpm and feel like it wasn't accelerating anymore, then after 2500rpm it would take off again as if nothing ever happened. During that time I would keep my foot perfectly still on the peddle waiting for it to figure itself out. It usually did, however as it went on, it steadily kept doing it until it never "took off again".

It will still revout just fine, and it doesn't seem to have any flat spots. It seems almost as if it is towing a trailer the whole time.

I was going to try and avoid opening the tank until the pump stops working, but I suppose they aren't too expensive for a standard pump so I guess I could preemptively replace it.

I'll have to see if there is a wrecking yard near me that has a dirt cheap auto ECU to try out.


macxr8 - The MAP sensor is the factory EL map sensor. I have tried 2 or 3 of them I think. They seem to respond, at least at extremes. When I disconnect the vacuum line to the MAP sensor it just starts to dump fuel out of the exhaust, providing the car doesn't stall straight away.

I have never tried an AU MAP sensor. When I did the engine swap, the only sensor I changed to an AU sensor was the coolant temp sensor. I extended the wires and changed the plug to suit the AU sensor. Everything else remained the EL variant.




When you guys unplug your 02 sensor, does your car run obviously worse?
I feel like that might be in the general direction of where my fault may be.
But then I think its not at the same time. It doesn't matter whether the sensor is plugged in or not, the car behaves exactly the same, uses the same amount of fuel, has the same amount of power, and still smells stupid rich.
Yet, when I observe it at closed loop mode at the ecu, I can watch on my meter it goes up and down the ever changing 0v~1v scale and when the throttle is stabbed it reacts to that as well. But then that would mean that the ecu is reacting to the input from the 02 sensor as it is then changing the mixture. It just stumps me how when it is no longer receiving this information it appears to work just fine.
It also drops black soot over the road. Where I park the car on the street, it has a black spray pattern on the road behind it. If I polish the exhaust tip and drive to work and back (130kms) it will be black again by time I am home.



Another thing I fiddled with a lot is the TPS sensor. I have tried 2 of them. The second one I took off a car that ran just fine. I measured the resistance of where it was sitting on the throttle body of the donor car and then installed it on my car at the exact same resistance, which yielded the factory specified voltage at the ECU (memory says it's 0.67v-ish?) which would then appear to be working just fine.

Is it possible that the fuel pressure regulator could be providing too much pressure to the rail, forcing the car to run rich? The reason I checked the diaphragm on my one was because I have heard that if it splits, it can suck fuel into the vacuum line, and in turn into the intake manifold providing un-metered fuel.

 

_________________

98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:38 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Age: 23

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Joined: 16th Oct 2012

Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

Just to breathe a little bit of life back into to this thread - Ford mods sure has gotten quite in the last year or two.

So I managed to get down to the wreckers yesterday and grabbed a couple of things, an ecu out of an auto 97 el and a trip computer out of a fairmont. Pretty good score for $20 I think.

Anyway, I put the auto ecu into the car following some instructions I read in another thread of putting a 6.8kohm resistor between pin30 and pin46 to trick the ecu into neutral and a 1.2kohm resistor between pin42 and pin46 to tell the thermo fans that the auto trans is all good.

I gave it start and it fired up first go, seemed to idle fine and when given a rev, it returned to idle just fine. Sweet!
Then, the car warmed up, the idle stumbled and started hunting for idle between 400 and 1100 rpm constantly - similar to that of a TPS issue.
I put the car into diag mode and it gave me a code of 121 tps out of range. I thought that was funny seeing as the last time I messed with the tps I set it at 0.7v. Sure enough, it was sitting at 3.2v idle.
It also gave me a code 522 NDS - A/C on. Which states the car must be in park or neutral with the aircon off while running the KOEO test. Which was funny as the aircon was off and the resistor was meant to put the car into neutral anyway.

I tried replacing the tps with an original one I have had shelved for a couple of years and still got the same results. I thought that I would give the car a drive anyway and see how it behaved. Not that you wouldn't expect it, it drove like a dog. A real piece of crap.

Back to the drawing board and I thought I would remove the resistors one at a time seeing as I didn't think they were doing anything as it still drove like crap.

I pulled out the gear position resistor first and nothing changed. Then I pulled out the trans temp resistor and the idle went back to normal! A little low, but no more hunting, but then the thermo fans started cranking. Obviously because I removed the resistor that was meant to fix that.
I checked the tps voltage again and guess what, back to 0.7v again.

Took the car for another spin and it drives just like it did in the original post of this thread - still crap.

What I am really puzzled by is that with the factory ecu (6DAB - EL Futura I6 Hybrid Manual 3.23:1) it drives terribly, so then I put a (6DBB - 1997 EL Fairmont Auto) ecu in, and even without any resistors or changes, just straight bolt in. The car drives exactly the same.
What the hell!?

 

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98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:22 am 
Fordmods Junkie
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Gallery: 11 images

Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

Yeah Fordmods has gotten quite over the years, people move on and have other focuses.

It seems like it's not the ECU that is the issue then.

Have you gotten the injectors changed before? If they are original, it would be a good idea to get some refurbished AU injectors. Also maybe check the fuel regulator. A blocked nozzle could give a bad spray pattern dripping fuel into the cylinder. I just remembered this happened to me that gave me a few flat spots, but this was because I put the inlet manifold gasket in upside down which blocked the injector nozzle dripping fuel in rather than sprayed for cylinders 4, 5, and 6. Issue was cleared as soon as we rotated the gasket around.

Check the BBM butterfly actuator as well...hopefully it's not simply stuck slightly open giving you poor low down torque.

 

_________________

phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:07 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL XR-6

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

hey buddy i have a very similar issue to what u currently have im not sure what it is and pretty much got all new sensors on the EL XR6 auto and it still bogs down never use to tho im think of replacing the vacuum purge valve and the inhibitor switch aswell while im running out of ideas aswell
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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:22 pm 
Stock as a Rock
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Joined: 16th Oct 2012

Ride: 98 EL Falcon

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

Hey fellas, thanks for the replies.

Phongus,
I'm beginning to think that it could be something to do with fuel pressure, whether it be a weak pump or faulty pressure regulator, maybe even a blocked filter. When money permits, I'm going to get a fuel pressure test kit and see if I can have a go at measuring the pressure before I go replacing the pump and the likes. The fuel filter that is in the car has probably done around 60k so I'm not sure how often you are meant to replace them. As for the injectors. I have never put new ones in, but I have had three different sets in the car over the course of its issues - the original EL ones (which were really dirty), then an AU set, then the AUII set that came with the engine. While it is still possible, I'm not sure if the injectors are the culprit as of yet.

Also, how do you suggest I check the BBM. I have had a look at it before, but I'm not sure if I did it properly. The valve does operate at 3800rpm, I have seen it work. I know when the manifold is split that the butterflies are still physically connected to the valve and the move well.

I have disconnected the vacuum line and plugged it. Then driven the car around with the butterfly cable tied open and closed. I noticed no difference in driving. However, I'm sure it did make a difference, just not an obvious one considering how poorly the car drives.

Jamie, mate. I wish I could help you, but I'm still trying to figure this damn car out.
I have had it for almost 7 years now, its still my first car (but I have been driving the misses car instead lately - 4cyl fuel economy is awesome, especially when it is heaps faster than the falcon.) and it used to drive really well apart from the rev hang due to the ISC. It drove like that for a few years and then all went down hill from there.

If I can actually get home before the sun sets in the afternoon, I'm going to have a go at filming the cars dash while taking off on a hill to give an accurate display of what is happening. I have described it before as taking off with a fully loaded trailer and having just enough power to pull it but then it gets stuck. Some times it feels like the trailer falls off and the car takes off again. Other times the car never takes off - usually when you're crossing traffic or trying to overtake...figures.

 

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98 EL Falcon Gli - AU II intech - t5 manual - Lowered on king lows - 2.5" custom exhaust - 200cell hi flow cat - 17" Speedy cobalt's powder coated in steel pearl - powerwindows - suede door inserts (classy) - fog lights - (probably other things I can't remember)

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:29 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Ride: 1994 ED XR6 1994 KJ ll Laser

Location: Capalaba
QLD, Australia

hey mate where bouts in brissie are you

 

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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:17 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EL XR-6

Location: Brisbane
QLD, Australia

Cleveland buddy
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 Post subject: Re: EL auto ecu in a EL factory manual
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:41 am 
Oompa Loompa
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Age: 53

Posts: 26

Joined: 25th Feb 2012

Gallery: 11 images

Ride: 1994 ED XR6 1994 KJ ll Laser

Location: Capalaba
QLD, Australia

i'm just up the road from you in capalaba. thought maybe i could pop over and see if i could help.

 

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