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ELFalcon Radiator fan not kicking in at high speed when hot 

 

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 Post subject: ELFalcon Radiator fan not kicking in at high speed when hot
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:18 pm 
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I have searched this forum for answers but little luck. I have EL 97 falcon which heats up on warmer days in Sydney. Things i have changed so far with new parts are a) new engine coolant sensor b) changed the three relays -two white & one green near the air box. c) changed fuse 60A near overflow tank.

There is flow when engine gets hotter so water pump is working. Both radiator fans work but only at normal speeds. Would not kick in at cyclonic speeds when temp guage gets to 'N'or 'O' position. Normal is at 'A' position.

So i did the extreme.....changed the ECU (had spare) with fan still not kicking in at high speed when very hot. I tested if the fan was faulty with another one at the mechanics and still ran at normal speed. When I unplug the coolant sensor wire the fan runs at cyclonic speed..very high. I do not think that new sensor wud be faulty as it gives all temps on the dash guage.

What is left to do ? Am i missing sumthing here ?

Thank you all in advance.
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:30 pm 
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EL fans only have one speed IIRC

EF Fans have two speeds though

Someone correct me if Im wrong

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:48 pm 
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nicco is correct, EL fans have only 1 speed, cyclonic. I have them fitted to my EB2. If your fans are running slower than that at any stage, I would suggest you have a short or similar electrical problem. Try unplugging your fan/s from the circuit [engine off] and directly wiring one at a time to your battery, [ie using wires t o the pos and neg terminal posts] observe the results. If both scream at top speed independant of the cars circuits, then those car circuits have a problem. If a fan still runs slow, the fan has a problem, unlikely from what you posted. This is assuming your battery doesn't have a problem, again unlikely etc.
BTW, never assume a new part is not faulty, unfortunately stringent quality control does not exist today. "Acceptable failure levels' is the mantra today.
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:29 pm 
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Thanks for response . I have three EL falcons in the family group. None of the other non heating falcons have cyclonic fan speed at normal operation temperature> I will be checking the fan speed change in other falcons by taking out the fan relays and heat it up above normal temp. After that will switch off and then re install the relays and see if cyclonic speed kicks in at a hot engine. Wil keep you posted on this.

Comments are still welcome about this issue.
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:36 pm 
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hang on now does the el only have 1 speed

so whats happening something when i car is idling you here it kick in but it's not spinning fast then you crank on the aircon and turn it upto boost then you hear them at full speed

 

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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:36 am 
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nicco wrote:
Someone correct me if Im wrong


Yeah, you're wrong, they are 2 speed.

EF's are capable of 3 speed.

Do the fans come on at high speed when you have the aircon turned on? Have you been fidding with the relays at all?

Its possible one of the relays in the relay block has crapped itself. You might want to try get some from a wrecker and swap them over.

Also check the Auto TX fuse in the fuse panel.
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:47 am 
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Judging what's been said, I doubt there is anything wrong with the fans.
Functionally test them using http://www.fordmods.com/forums/documents.php?doc=54 , which also confirms Adrian is correct re the how many speeds.
There are also fault codes on the relays, maybe the fans also (can't remember), so pull the fault codes from the ECU.
And finally, How hot is hot ??
Maybe the system is still not getting hot enough to run at full speed - put your inst cluster in diagnostic mode, http://www.fordmods.com/forums/documents.php?doc=12 and check the actual coolant temp, normally, should be around 92deg C. Don't just rely on the indicator pointer.
I'd be checking the cooling system - cap, thermostat - maybe it's running a bit below par.

 

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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:17 pm 
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The EL fans when connected directly to a 12v circuit have 1 speed only, which is so powerful I associated it with the description "cyclonic". The 1400rpm mode is controlled by the cars circuits probably varying the amperage to a one speed fan. It is still a one speed fan, not including 'off'. I suggested directly hooking up the fans to ensure they are capable of running at that unfettered speed. If they do, the problem [ if any] then lies within the cars circuitry. After ensuring they can run at top speed independantly, refer to snap0964's post on how to find if you have a problem. The speeds Arm79 is referring to are governed by the same relays etc. with they both mention as potentially problematic.
quote "If your fans are running slower than that at any stage", I apologise for not adding 'when they should be running faster" as I assumed this would have been understood by all.
My understanding is that the ungoverned speed is 'normal' and the lower speed is induced by circuitry.
Sorry again for any confusion on that issue.
Cheers
Paul

 

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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Thanks to all contributors so far. Yes, I have fiddled with the relays. I have changed them with four different sets(12 pieces) with no difference in performance of fans so far. The fans are not faulty . Both fan inside the shroud are working. I also tested by fitting another fan unit from another workin car which works but only at the slower speed. When I turn on the air conditioning only then the fan speed goes cyclonic(2300rpm). Normally the fans are in cruise mode(1400rpm).

Thermostat has recently been changed and after its change it was not heating until few weeks. Coolant sensor changed few days ago. When sensor wire is unplugged it goes fast 2300rpm which means the fan is working. It is just that it is not being triggerred at higher speeds when the needle moves to just below red area (hot hot). I still have to go thru the diagnostic modes as described by snap0964. May need to try 'another' sensor. Will keep all posted. Keep em coming all !!
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:49 am 
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Be sure you replaced the relays with the same type - white relays are 4 pin (grey are also, but have a reverse current diode across the coil from memory)Green relays are 5 pin (so are blue ones).

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:02 am 
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Snap,
Do you think he try another ECU?
Mac

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:52 am 
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I have changed the relays last time (yesterday)which has been taken out of another EL falcon who does not have such problem. Green one in the middle with white ones on both sides.

I have changed the ECU two days ago which was on shelf for some time. Do I need to get any error messages erased on the second ECU that I fitted as I hav not done so. I assume as it was on shelf for months without any power which does not let it hold any errors anyway. Pls advise

Yet to do few more tests.
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:16 pm 
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Paulmac wrote:
Snap, Do you think he try another ECU? Mac

He's on his second one Paul - I doubt that there's anything wrong with either. Apart from the A/C and other tests, you can grab a few 10c resistors, bend the legs, and fit them to the coolant sensor plug - with the cluster in diagnostic mode, you can see where the temp is, and what the fans are doing - engine needs to run of course.
I couldn't find any info in the ford manuals at which temp the fans go to high speed, so I did the above - here's my findings (A/C off):
Fans cut in at low speed from 75-80deg C.
Fans go to high speed from 105deg C and above - a disconnected plug equates to 130deg C.
Resistors:
2.2Kohm - 98deg C
2Kohm - 102deg C
1.8Kohm - 105deg C
1.65Kohm - 108deg C

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Snap,
That is truly impressive to one not versed in the home uses of resistors and such.
As sandeeprasad has replaced every item you have listed as a potential problem and barring damage to the wiring, does it then come down to the temperature being sent to the ECU being degraded eg by a bad earth, contact, connection or sender unit?
Just playing Devil's advocate to superior electrical knowledge here, to try to help out.
Mac

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:00 pm 
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nicco wrote:
EL fans only have one speed IIRC

EF Fans have two speeds though

Someone correct me if Im wrong


EL Have 3 Speeds.
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