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| markr154 |
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Scaffy wrote: I'm sorry to hear about your dramas mate! I don't know what it is with them and leaving timing set at stock. When I got my car back from them (v8) they left base timiing at 30 degrees and my car was running like s**t (amongst a number of other problems). It was tuned using the twEECer and I was so unhappy with it that I got in contact with Trick Flow in the states to see if they could tell me what's wrong. They told me base timing should be set to 34 - 36 degrees, even higher in some cases due to the alloy heads. I passed this info on to Terry and he pretty much told me that was s**t and dangerous. You'd think the people who manufacture a product would know what it is capable of. I took it back for them to fix a few things and asked him to bump the timing up a bit and see how it goes. After bumping it up to 36 degrees I gained 25hp. I'm still not happy with the way it's running and am just going to get the other issues (exhaust leaks, coolant leaks and ticking) fixed then go and get it tuned elsewhere.
I recommend you do you best to get your money back and go elsewhere also. Don't defend them or stick up for them because as far as they're concerned because they didn't build your motor and don't know what's in there, or in my case because they didn't supply the parts, what's the point of spending/wasting too much time on it? It's a s**t attitude and since I've discovered it, I've lost all faith in them. Get your base timing reset to where it was, throw it on the dyno and after comparing the results, tell them not to waste anymore of your time or their time and give you your money back. Yeah, I'll get them to advance the ignition timing back to where it was and see if that makes a difference. Then I'll use THAT as my BEFORE dyno ...and I guess I'll have to see if they can make the AFTER tune worth the expense. I'm a little peeved ...mainly cos I was expecting a better result, and I really haven't been able to drive the car since the tune ...really screwed me up over Xmas / New Year.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| Mr EL XR6 5sp |
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Mate I feel for you.
The E series can be a real pain in the a** when it comes to Ign Timming. Dont even ask me what the morons at Range ford did. (dont ever go their) Thankfully I got mine fixed by someone who knows what he was doing. Why on earth did this guy take your car back to standard timming is puzzleing to me. Simple rule of thumb with E series 6 cly falcons. You put a lump cam in you have to advance the Ing timming. |
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| markr154 |
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Mr EL XR6 5sp wrote: Mate I feel for you.
The E series can be a real pain in the a** when it comes to Ign Timming. Dont even ask me what the morons at Range ford did. (dont ever go their) Thankfully I got mine fixed by someone who knows what he was doing. Why on earth did this guy take your car back to standard timming is puzzleing to me. Simple rule of thumb with E series 6 cly falcons. You put a lump cam in you have to advance the Ing timming. I'm gonna make sure the Ignition timing goes back to where it was ...that's if Terry can remember. I'll call Brendan Mock and see what his recommendations are for ignition timing too. I just hope I haven't done any other damage in the short driving spell since the tune.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| markr154 |
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Just got off the phone with Jim Mock..
He reckons Ignition Timing MUST be set 14-16 degrees BEFORE Top Dead Centre ...after shorting / putting engine in self-learn mode as per the Ford Manual. I think stock is 10 deg BTDC ...though I wouldn't be surprised if I'm now running behind that. TDC must be ABSOLUTELY confirmed from the engine dampener, since that can drift also. I explained my situation, and while he wasn't surprised ...he did say that he's flaggergasted that it seems 19 out of 20 workshops are completely ignorant of the importance of ignition timing, and how to properly set it.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| FordFairmont |
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Posts: 6113 Joined: 8th May 2007 |
markr154 wrote: TDC must be ABSOLUTELY confirmed from the engine dampener, since that can drift also.
I recently found with mine the balancer was NOT showing 'true' TDC. The method i used is here http://www.trueblueford.com/discussion/ ... 9278#39278 Crude, but accurate enough. I assume the old chain was streched and perfect timing, then the new chain went on, and now the cam gear mark sits 5mm above the head instead of the maximum 3mm. Theres not much i can do about it, unless i get an adjustable vernier gear. |
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| markr154 |
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FordFairmont wrote: markr154 wrote: TDC must be ABSOLUTELY confirmed from the engine dampener, since that can drift also. I recently found with mine the balancer was NOT showing 'true' TDC. The method i used is here http://www.trueblueford.com/discussion/ ... 9278#39278 Crude, but accurate enough. I assume the old chain was streched and perfect timing, then the new chain went on, and now the cam gear mark sits 5mm above the head instead of the maximum 3mm. Theres not much i can do about it, unless i get an adjustable vernier gear. Just realised who you are ...ITSDAMAFIA! 
Did you get a reply on PES? Probably not..
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| markr154 |
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Left the car at BPT today.
They're still insisting that ignition timing advance is not the way to tune a car, and that Jim Mock's tuning methods are not really the correct way ...since advancing ignition timing will introduce running issues like rev hang etc. I think they're planning to pop the rocker cover off to check cam timing, and also check compression, and my exhaust etc. We'll see what they find ...just hope this doesn't mean I'll lose the car for this week too ...f**k pain in the a**.
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| FordFairmont |
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Posts: 6113 Joined: 8th May 2007 |
markr154 wrote: .
I think they're planning to pop the rocker cover off to check cam timing, and also check compression, and my exhaust etc. if your head has been machined and fitted with AU gasket, that can be enough to retard the cam timing by 2 degrees. Maybe more if your old chain was stretched and left in the same postion for the new chain Last edited by FordFairmont on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total. |
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| fritzz |
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with the "Eliminator Chip" installed the ignition map should be fully tunable, therefore the ignition timing can be tuned to optimum. this is how it should have been tuned in the first place. the static timing then can stay as stock, this is the whole reason why u would put on the chip in the first place.
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| markr154 |
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fritzz wrote: with the "Eliminator Chip" installed the ignition map should be fully tunable, therefore the ignition timing can be tuned to optimum. this is how it should have been tuned in the first place. the static timing then can stay as stock, this is the whole reason why u would put on the chip in the first place.
Please clear this up for me mate: a) Base (or static) ignition timing should stay set at 10 deg BTDC... b) ...then the Eliminator chip is used to tune the ignition timing MAP on the dyno? It's a bit confusing when it seems like there are TWO types of Ignition timing to consider? Just want to clear this up so I can talk to Terry tomorrow ...cheers
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| BI6TIM |
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Yes there is base timing and then the ignition map moves on from there taking TPS, RPM, MAP, AIT and 02 sensor readings into consideration.
The EEC is more tallented than people give it credit for, it does a hell of a lot of calculation to keep your engine happy. Having said that, the EEC does have very strict limitations and the J3 port tuning methods have never had anything on 'real' computers. My suggestion, forget the J3 rubish and put your money into a EMS or Autronic, as has been suggested before. Especialy if you're planning to go turbo in the future, you'll never look back once you buy a real computer! |
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| FAST-XR |
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just make sure you get dynoed on the stock ecu with timing advance on dizzy, that way you have something against his under performing tune. if he fails to beat the stabdard ecu then get your money back, and listen to what BI6TIM said and go full aftermarket...
_________________ 07 BF MKII XR6T |
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| fritzz |
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a) yes the base timing should be set bak to stock. witch is 0*btdc +/- 2*, not 10*btdc.
b) yes the chip should be able to tune the fuel and ignition map on the dyno the base timing is what the map works of, e.g. if u add 5* off base timing it will add 5* of timing across the whole ignition map in the ecu. imo if this chip doesn't allow ignition maps to be accurately adjustable across the whole rpm and load range then get your money back and get a aftermarket ecu, its the best way to go as the rest have already said
_________________ # 1997 EL Falcon GLI - 600+rwkw |
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| markr154 |
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No news as of yet ...they had her on the dyno today, and she's staying overnight.
One thing Terry asked me today when I told him about what Jim Mock had said about the 14-16 deg BTDC ignition timing "What point is that at, at Wide Open Throttle?" ...I was stumped 
I've given them Jim Mock's mobile ...they can nut it out together. Dunno about the ignition timing ...but I certainly felt retarded 
This is slowly but surely pissing me off..
_________________ Hot Chilli Red EL XR6, 5-spd, JMM DEV 5 enhanced (161 rwkw custom tuned), Eliminator Switch Chip, 18" BA GTP rims, Pedders Superlows, BA XR6 badges, BA Sunroof, Pioneer Stereo, Splits, 6x9's, 10" sub, 700W 6-ch Viper amp.
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| BI6TIM |
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Don't feel retarded, it's terry who should feel retarded.
He should know that there is no way you could have changed the map at WOT if you didn't have a computer installed. On a car with mods like yours (minus any chips) you can only adjust the base ignition timing with the dissy. Terry should know that. This terry guy is sounding more and more like someone you should keep away from your car! |
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