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Eliminator Chip Tune on DEV 5 EL XR6 ...mixed results?????? 

 

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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:52 pm 
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from what i can understand he drove in with a car that had balls, and drove out underpowered!

lets forget the timing chain, even after it had been replaced mark still said it had balls the day he drove in for the tune...

 

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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:55 pm 
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FAST-XR wrote:
from what i can understand he drove in with a car that had balls, and drove out underpowered!

lets forget the timing chain, even after it had been replaced mark still said it had balls the day he drove in for the tune...



dude it drove out with 40hp more peak and 25hp average, then it drove in with.

the best thing mark can do is take the car to someone with good rep with falcons, have them check the cam timing and get them to check the tune and adjust whats needs adjusting.

 

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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:12 pm 
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Quote:

Quote:
FAST-XR wrote:
the timing map that they have tuned must not be as good as the standard map with the advanced timing which you drove in with.

who is to say that any custom ignition timing map is better than standard.

when it comes to fuel its a different story, cos it was running rich, and yes the map needed some tuning...

what could work for you is to run the standard ignition map with the base timing advanced at the dizzy as you did previously, and get them to tune the fuel map only...


That makes sense ...cos she definitely had more balls before the tune.

Hey Vince there must be some truth in what I'm saying to you guys about cams & ECU's & lets face it for what you have done on your engine its bascilly been untouchable.....

Joe



Don't quite get what you're saying mate ...please elaborate?


joe weaved his magic on my car, what he has to say about cams and ecu's are not swallowed by all, but are yet to be proved wrong! results speak for themselves, and the fact that no other performance peddlers in sydney want to race a cms powered car also says something...


but anyway, back on topic! hope your tune gets sorted, nothing worse than driving in a car that you know for a fact has slowed down after spending money on it..

 

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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:16 pm 
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Quote:
FAST-XR wrote:
from what i can understand he drove in with a car that had balls, and drove out underpowered!

lets forget the timing chain, even after it had been replaced mark still said it had balls the day he drove in for the tune...



dude it drove out with 40hp more peak and 25hp average, then it drove in with.

the best thing mark can do is take the car to someone with good rep with falcons, have them check the cam timing and get them to check the tune and adjust whats needs adjusting.


no thats not right, the 'before' dyno graph was after the timing was knocked back to standard (so its not how he drove in), i bet you my balls that if his car was dyno'd as it was with the ignition advance it would have been better than the result after the custom tune....

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:25 am 
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FAST-XR wrote:
Quote:
FAST-XR wrote:
from what i can understand he drove in with a car that had balls, and drove out underpowered!

lets forget the timing chain, even after it had been replaced mark still said it had balls the day he drove in for the tune...



dude it drove out with 40hp more peak and 25hp average, then it drove in with.

the best thing mark can do is take the car to someone with good rep with falcons, have them check the cam timing and get them to check the tune and adjust whats needs adjusting.


no thats not right, the 'before' dyno graph was after the timing was knocked back to standard (so its not how he drove in), i bet you my balls that if his car was dyno'd as it was with the ignition advance it would have been better than the result after the custom tune....


EXACTLY RIGHT!

The car had lost none of it's balls after the timing chain was replaced ...in fact the guy who had my car at the time took it down the strip pretty soon afterwards in full street trim and ran a 14.6 in it ...his first time down there!

If anything, the timing chain replacement probably enhanced her a little ...and I'm now pretty certain that she lost her balls as a result of the reverting back of the ignition timing before the tune ...nothing to do with cam timing at all.

After a quick squizz at an Ellery's manual ...it says the most common symptoms of incorrect IGNITION timing are:

Hard starting*
Rough idling or stalling*
Engine hesitation / poor acceleration*
Engine running after ignition turned off
Muffler explosion / afterfire*
Engine backfiring*
Poor fuel economy*
Engine overheats*

I have noticed ALL the symptoms (in varying degrees) marked * in my car since the tune!

So ...what should I be telling BPT / XFT to do now?

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:32 am 
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[/quote]
no thats not right, the 'before' dyno graph was after the timing was knocked back to standard (so its not how he drove in), i bet you my balls that if his car was dyno'd as it was with the ignition advance it would have been better than the result after the custom tune....[/quote]

I reckon so too.

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:14 am 
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the fuel side of things seems good. just take it to simon at xft and get him to tune the ignition map and then touch up on the fuel map, and maybe just a check up on other things like base ignition timing and check cam timing.

most manual dev5's i have seen put out between 210-230rwhp

i cant believe they don't even do a comp test before tuning it, no wonder there rep is getting bad

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:24 am 
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fritzz wrote:
the fuel side of things seems good. just take it to simon at xft and get him to tune the ignition map and then touch up on the fuel map. most manual dev5's will put out between 210-230rwhp


Yeah ...that's the sort of final power figure I was originally expecting, with a few of the running glitches ironed / smoothed out.

Any idea when he's back?

Thanks again Fritzz :wink:

P.S. The idea of this whole exercise was to basically get the DEV 5 running sweet as ...to hopefully head down to the strip for some 'very' low 14's ...then onto a SENSIBLE boost set-up by early-mid 2008.

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:01 am 
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Something NOONE has mentioned yet (unless I missed it as I scrolled through all of this) is that changing the fueling changes the optimum ignition advance at that point in the map. It may not change an awful amount in an NA car, but you will find that as you lean an engine out, that the total advance possible before detonation occurs is lower. This obviously means that power output will change - ie running leaner gets you more power, retarding the timing gets you less. You end up chasing the tail. Although at 13:1 you should have no problems making good power and it should support pretty decent timing values. I can probably go find Steves DEV5a maps from the autronic if i look hard enough.

There have recently been a few leanout stuff ups at BPT (from what I can gather) that have lunched engines on the street or dyno. Overheating generally occurs with lean and either highly retarded or slightly over advanced conditions. The last time my car blew the headgasket it was only slightly above the middle of the r in normal. The fact that it has hit o, worries me greatly, although your not turbo'd like me, so things are less stressed.

I will be VERY surprised if your timing is right, and I will not be surprised AT ALL if you find that your afr's are no where near what it says on that graph.

The fact that it is hesitant and feels sluggish with lower power and overheating says to me, lean and retarded. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the head gasket has cacked it either considering the level of overheating, and the hard starting/idle problems.....good luck dude :(

I sincerely hope its something simple.
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:43 am 
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well if it is drinking more fuel then it was that must say that it is also running ritcher i have dev 5 installed by me n friends cam dialed into mocks specs im getting 11's in fuel driveing around town and i dont take it easy car has run a 14.2 @ 98mph with timeing advance. fuel mixtures have been checked on the street with my mates wideband o2 sensor and it is almost spot on

 

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 Post subject: Re: chip
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:53 am 
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Don't quite get what you're saying mate ...please elaborate?[/quote]

I not going to go into the astetics of my point... ! but what works for me & running my stuff with the factory ECU's & getting better power & torque figures works......!!!

but can I suggest to get it back to who ever you want & start with the basics as we tend to forget that some times, classic example, Hyena looking for a eletrical/ECU problem & it ended up being a valve spring ??....so take the chip out so it dosn't marsk anything & do a cylinder leakage test, vacumm gauge check or even using a 4 or 5 gas, will give you an idea.... no matter how suffisticated the electronics are it still needs the mechanicals to work propley, if the operater can read a gauge propley & is happy with those tests then move from there. A well equiped workshop should have these diognostic tools as part of any fault finding proceder.....

Joe
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 Post subject: Re: chip
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:27 am 
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AUXR8 2 wrote:
Don't quite get what you're saying mate ...please elaborate?


I not going to go into the astetics of my point... ! but what works for me & running my stuff with the factory ECU's & getting better power & torque figures works......!!!

but can I suggest to get it back to who ever you want & start with the basics as we tend to forget that some times, classic example, Hyena looking for a eletrical/ECU problem & it ended up being a valve spring ??....so take the chip out so it dosn't marsk anything & do a cylinder leakage test, vacumm gauge check or even using a 4 or 5 gas, will give you an idea.... no matter how suffisticated the electronics are it still needs the mechanicals to work propley, if the operater can read a gauge propley & is happy with those tests then move from there. A well equiped workshop should have these diognostic tools as part of any fault finding proceder.....

Joe[/quote]

i agree 100% dev 5 was desinged to run on a factory ecu there is no other cam that makes that power and idels fine if ya getting idel hunting look for other problems cause mine sits on 700rpm all day everyday no problems

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:49 am 
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Don't think I've got any head gasket issues ...it was a 36 deg day and I had the A/C on while tootling around in traffic ...gauge only hit the 'R' mark in NORMAL when I just sat sat there idling with the A/C on ...the car has never been brilliant with the A/C on in the heat of summer anyway.

She definitely does seem to be running a little hotter than usual, but the temp gauge does come down again when she's moving.

I'm not losing any coolant either.

I've taken her off the road now until I can get her into either BPT or XFT.

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:13 pm 
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My base idle was a little screwed anyway from f@rt around with the Chiptorque chip being taken on and off, and fiddling with the ISC and idle adjustment screw.

The only reason why I went with BPT and not XFT is that I was told by XFT that they are TUNERS ONLY, and don't do mechanicals.

I'm thinking now that my Ignition timing needs to be reset (at least back to where it was) and then the AFR's tuned.

 

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:13 pm 
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Take it to a reliable tuner mate! half of these guys with dyno's don't know the insight of custom tuning a fuzzy & pedantic setup.

Was there any major head work done on it? you'll be surprise how many mis-match set up there are!

spend some extra bucks on a decent tuner like one of the sponsor's on here! they sort your probs out!

 

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