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Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Rebuild parts list
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:44 am 
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Do it Phong!

I used the Race Series Rebuild kit in my EL XR (theres details in the build thread), the full kit was $650 and includes the full gasket kit. The only change I made was to use an Ford AU MLS headgasket.

$88 Clean block
$198 Bore and Hone "020
$250 Grind and Cracktest Crank
$111 DAA Rods
$135 Resize Rods
$330 Balance
$634 ACL "020 Race Series rebuild kit
$122 Oil Pump
$85 Water Pump
$15 Welch Plugs
$125 Ford Timing Kit
$33 Head bolts

That was the original quote, changed a few bits and pieces as I went though.

I used the Nason Timing kit, Brass Welsh plugs, JP Normal oil pump, Crow Vernier cam gear, Powerbond balancer too I think.

I got warned off the High Volume oil pump, as the stock one pumps suffiicient and with a built motor you tend to rev higher/more often and pump it up to the head, but thats just what I was told. I know the RB motors have an issue with this. My oil pressure sits 1 Bar off full if that helps.

All up including machining, and doing all labour myself, I think the bottom end came in around 2k. The problem is its so easy to just keep saying "while I've got it apart, I may aswell.....". Each little extra bit you spend makes it more bulletproof in the long run.

The gudgeon pins are hot pressed into the pistons and rods I'm pretty sure, I got the machine shop that did the work to give them to me assembled, as they had to to balance it anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Rebuild parts list
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:52 pm 
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phongus wrote:
After a quick browse through VPW Performance online I got the following prices.

Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $145.55
Rollmaster timing gear kit - $127.76
JP high volume oil pump - $96.17

Probably get it cheaper if I buy a whole lot off them, but just gauging prices first.

EDIT: Some Ebay browsing

GMB water pump (PowerMax...same thing?) - $60 posted Ebay link
Nason Timing kit - $84.00 posted Ebay Link



Why do you want a HV oil pump. The stock pump is well capable of providing enough volume and pressure for and engine with stock bearing clearance.
ALL of the extra 'volume will be pumped out of the pressure relief valve and back into the sump.
Wait and inspect your old pump, make sure all the clearances are right in the pump and have the pressure of the relief spring checked and shim it as needed. An engine machine shop can check this on a valve spring tester. I can provide the specs you need.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Rebuild parts list
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

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rainoffire wrote:
Do it Phong!

I used the Race Series Rebuild kit in my EL XR (theres details in the build thread), the full kit was $650 and includes the full gasket kit. The only change I made was to use an Ford AU MLS headgasket.

$88 Clean block
$198 Bore and Hone "020
$250 Grind and Cracktest Crank
$111 DAA Rods
$135 Resize Rods
$330 Balance
$634 ACL "020 Race Series rebuild kit
$122 Oil Pump
$85 Water Pump
$15 Welch Plugs
$125 Ford Timing Kit
$33 Head bolts

That was the original quote, changed a few bits and pieces as I went though.

I used the Nason Timing kit, Brass Welsh plugs, JP Normal oil pump, Crow Vernier cam gear, Powerbond balancer too I think.

I got warned off the High Volume oil pump, as the stock one pumps suffiicient and with a built motor you tend to rev higher/more often and pump it up to the head, but thats just what I was told. I know the RB motors have an issue with this. My oil pressure sits 1 Bar off full if that helps.

All up including machining, and doing all labour myself, I think the bottom end came in around 2k. The problem is its so easy to just keep saying "while I've got it apart, I may aswell.....". Each little extra bit you spend makes it more bulletproof in the long run.

The gudgeon pins are hot pressed into the pistons and rods I'm pretty sure, I got the machine shop that did the work to give them to me assembled, as they had to to balance it anyway.


Thanks for the price list :) gives me a good starting point of what to get first. I will probably end up getting a normal one or keep the old one if it's still in good condition, however I suspect a bad oil pump was the main issue that caused the engine to die in the first place, but that's just an assumption.

tickford_6 wrote:
phongus wrote:
After a quick browse through VPW Performance online I got the following prices.

Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $145.55
Rollmaster timing gear kit - $127.76
JP high volume oil pump - $96.17

Probably get it cheaper if I buy a whole lot off them, but just gauging prices first.

EDIT: Some Ebay browsing

GMB water pump (PowerMax...same thing?) - $60 posted Ebay link
Nason Timing kit - $84.00 posted Ebay Link



Why do you want a HV oil pump. The stock pump is well capable of providing enough volume and pressure for and engine with stock bearing clearance.
ALL of the extra 'volume will be pumped out of the pressure relief valve and back into the sump.
Wait and inspect your old pump, make sure all the clearances are right in the pump and have the pressure of the relief spring checked and shim it as needed. An engine machine shop can check this on a valve spring tester. I can provide the specs you need.


Thanks for that tickford_6. I wasn't planning on getting it, but I thought I'd price it out anyway. The one currently in the block is probably shagged anyway...but I'll find out when I have a look-see. I'm not rebuilding this engine to be a street racer, just a reliable every day car with some towing in between. For now sussing out prices to see what I should get first. I will send you a PM if I need the specs (don't even know what I'm looking for). Thanks :)

This will be my first rebuild, so not everything has to be top of the range stuff...mainly for knowledge and experience more than anything.

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

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I have another question regarding balancing the motor.

From what I have read, truth or not, it is said to balance everything as one whole rotating assembly/system for optimum balance. However I was wondering...would it be just as good, if not slightly worse, if I was to get the crankshaft balanced on it's own and balance the pistons/conrod/gudgeon pin/bolts/etc as sets of two by myself and bolt that onto the balanced crank later? Or am I just dreaming with a simple mind?

I ask because I have access to lab scales with readings as far as 4 decimal places +/- 0.0001g error (don't think you need that accurate?) and can balance the components myself. All I need to double check on is where it is best to shave off the weight for certain components.

I assume, from memory, that cylinders 1 and 6 need to be balanced, 2/5 and 3/4 as pairs...preferably with all 6 cylinders having similar weights in total component weight.

If I had the know how or the tools, I probably try and balance the crank myself too, but that's pushing it.

I believe I have enough mechanical experience to give this a shot, however if you believe balancing the internals myself might be pushing it, let me know. I am happy to take any constructive criticism/enlightenment to help me through this.

So if anyone has any information that would be great.

Cheers
Phong

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:38 pm 
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sounds exciting...ly expensive. lol. i too dream with a simple mind, also a jewish mind. :lol:
when it comes down to puttin it all together, if you ever need a hand, i'm down to come and be a tool monkey, learn a bit and give a hand. :mrgreen:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:14 pm 
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VIC, Australia

Can i just ask why are you rebuilding it? Are you planning on boosting it? If not just go to the wreackers and buy a EF-AU motor,Seems quite pointless to rebuild your engine unless you just wanna throw money around..

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Ride: AU XR6 with BF Turbo engine

Location: Sydney
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phongus wrote:
I have another question regarding balancing the motor.

From what I have read, truth or not, it is said to balance everything as one whole rotating assembly/system for optimum balance. However I was wondering...would it be just as good, if not slightly worse, if I was to get the crankshaft balanced on it's own and balance the pistons/conrod/gudgeon pin/bolts/etc as sets of two by myself and bolt that onto the balanced crank later? Or am I just dreaming with a simple mind?

I ask because I have access to lab scales with readings as far as 4 decimal places +/- 0.0001g error (don't think you need that accurate?) and can balance the components myself. All I need to double check on is where it is best to shave off the weight for certain components.

I assume, from memory, that cylinders 1 and 6 need to be balanced, 2/5 and 3/4 as pairs...preferably with all 6 cylinders having similar weights in total component weight.

If I had the know how or the tools, I probably try and balance the crank myself too, but that's pushing it.

I believe I have enough mechanical experience to give this a shot, however if you believe balancing the internals myself might be pushing it, let me know. I am happy to take any constructive criticism/enlightenment to help me through this.

So if anyone has any information that would be great.

Cheers
Phong


Yes you can do it this way, but...
pistons rings etc are fine to balance to each other. Weigh each component, ie pistons, gudgeon pins etc find the lightest and then match the rest to them. only rempove weight from the ends of the pins, and from the gudgeon pin boss on the pistons.

Rods need to be balanced two ways. Same over all weight, then big end and little ends need to be weighed. Unless you have a conrod jig to weigh them, I would leave to the pros.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Michael (HYPOEB) wrote:
Can i just ask why are you rebuilding it? Are you planning on boosting it? If not just go to the wreackers and buy a EF-AU motor,Seems quite pointless to rebuild your engine unless you just wanna throw money around..



Don't know about where you live, but around here the SOHC engine is getting a bit thin on the ground and wreckers are asking $900-$1100 for them.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Power: 144 rwkw

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Michael (HYPOEB) wrote:
Can i just ask why are you rebuilding it? Are you planning on boosting it? If not just go to the wreackers and buy a EF-AU motor,Seems quite pointless to rebuild your engine unless you just wanna throw money around..


I'm doing it because I can...mainly for personal accomplishment and wanting to learn and understand things better. Yes I know I can fetch a cheap E/AU-series motor, but why would I get another motor when I have a spare motor I can work on over time that will be better than the ones wreckers supply with no idea of history. With the money I'm spending, I will also gain knowledge and experience...not sure when I will use this knowledge next, but I like to know and learn things that interest me (not as a job, as a hobby).

Also completing a project that actually works after putting in the hard yards is one of the best feelings.

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

macxr8 wrote:
phongus wrote:
I have another question regarding balancing the motor.

From what I have read, truth or not, it is said to balance everything as one whole rotating assembly/system for optimum balance. However I was wondering...would it be just as good, if not slightly worse, if I was to get the crankshaft balanced on it's own and balance the pistons/conrod/gudgeon pin/bolts/etc as sets of two by myself and bolt that onto the balanced crank later? Or am I just dreaming with a simple mind?

I ask because I have access to lab scales with readings as far as 4 decimal places +/- 0.0001g error (don't think you need that accurate?) and can balance the components myself. All I need to double check on is where it is best to shave off the weight for certain components.

I assume, from memory, that cylinders 1 and 6 need to be balanced, 2/5 and 3/4 as pairs...preferably with all 6 cylinders having similar weights in total component weight.

If I had the know how or the tools, I probably try and balance the crank myself too, but that's pushing it.

I believe I have enough mechanical experience to give this a shot, however if you believe balancing the internals myself might be pushing it, let me know. I am happy to take any constructive criticism/enlightenment to help me through this.

So if anyone has any information that would be great.

Cheers
Phong


Yes you can do it this way, but...
pistons rings etc are fine to balance to each other. Weigh each component, ie pistons, gudgeon pins etc find the lightest and then match the rest to them. only rempove weight from the ends of the pins, and from the gudgeon pin boss on the pistons.

Rods need to be balanced two ways. Same over all weight, then big end and little ends need to be weighed. Unless you have a conrod jig to weigh them, I would leave to the pros.


Thanks for that macxr8. Never thought about the conrod having the requirement of big and small end weights. Might have to leave it to the pros if I can't dig out anything I can try myself :)

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:34 am 
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Thanks for that macxr8. Never thought about the conrod having the requirement of big and small end weights. Might have to leave it to the pros if I can't dig out anything I can try myself pistons will be close,con rods are wacky,crank may be? for stock motor passed by ford for dads daily driver.eg i had 6 rods-ford,5 out by 1-3 grams not bad,last one was a brick 11 grams :shock: :shock: had the ford approval :shock: :shock:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:19 pm 
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hans hartman wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for that macxr8. Never thought about the conrod having the requirement of big and small end weights. Might have to leave it to the pros if I can't dig out anything I can try myself
pistons will be close,con rods are wacky,crank may be? for stock motor passed by ford for dads daily driver.eg i had 6 rods-ford,5 out by 1-3 grams not bad,last one was a brick 11 grams :shock: :shock: had the ford approval :shock: :shock:


Yeah I have heard that 1-3grams is QC pass for factory items. I don't have to balance the motor, but might as well while it's out. 11grams however, is rather a lot.

Quick question.

Timing chain kits...usually only to replace the timing chain, tensioner, guides and gaskets right? Not the actual gears themselves? I'd assume with gears would cost me dearly but I would assume the gears are very hard wearing and aren't replaced a lot?

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:23 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Timing chain kits...usually only to replace the timing chain, tensioner, guides and gaskets right? Not the actual gears themselves? I'd assume with gears would cost me dearly but I would assume the gears are very hard wearing and aren't replaced a lot? check the wear on sprockets and price new ones

 

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:38 pm 
Fordmods Junkie
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Ride: EL Fairmont, VFR400 racer

Power: 144 rwkw

Location: Melbourne
VIC, Australia

Got a fair few quotes on different parts the last couple of days from different places...but mainly stuck to Repco and Bursons.

EDIT-Forgot to mention that only Repco supplied ACL race rebuild kit as a local auto supplier. Engine rebuilders can too but haven't priced it.

Repco
ACL Race rebuild kit - $668 + freight from ACL (QLD)
Nason Oil pump - $150
Nason Timing chain kit - $149
GMB water pump (incl. pulley) - $101.20
"Precision" Harmonic Balancer - $97.25

Bursons
"Precision" Oil pump - $170
Durotec Timining Chain kit - $144.80
GMB water pump (incl. pulley) - $108.35
Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $111.50

VPW
JP High flow oil pump - $96.17 (according to website...not sure if that incl. GST, $106 if not included)
Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $145.55 (again from website, add more if GST no included)

I've also checked stuff from Ford with George (Papa Smurf) and local Bayford spare parts in Campbellfied, but some of the items are rather more pricier as you'd expect so most of the items will be aftermarket.

Welsh plugs were all pretty much similar in price...but I rounded it up to $4.00 per brass plug.

Ebay has also been good with prices. I posted previously that there was a cheap GMB water pump, however I failed to notice it wasn't for the EL. No I did not buy it :P, however I did also link to a Nason Timing kit which I have purchased at $84...not sure if you could get it cheaper, but the "Buy It" button combined with the words Free Postage got the better of me. I don't think I could have afforded anything else in regards to Timing Chain Kits, have heard good things from Rolon and good reliability (also some bad stuff such as chain adruptly snapping on some other model cars due to less stretching? could be rumours), but Nason were also noted as reliable and have been run by many people without issues...added with cheaper price it was a winner.

Anyways that's as much as I can afford this month...I have limited myself to buying one item per month as to not bankrupt myself so it will be a while before I even get to complete this engine.

To add to the price list, I have gotten myself some quotes in regards to block checked, acid washed/bathed, surface straighten (decked or whatever it's called) and honed. Only called up 2 places...Place A charged $220, B $250. Balancing crank at A was $140 and at B $100. Not much difference between the 2. Also add maybe $200 on top for balancing the whole complete unit (pistons/rods/crank/flywheel/clutch etc).

Hope that helps anyone out there doing the same thing at the moment. Pretty sure prices will vary so budget more.

 

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phongus = Post whore 2006
EL XR6 motor, EL ECU + J3 chip, WADE 1673 Camshaft, 3" S/S intake, Pacy 4480, 2.5" Hi flow cat, 2.5" Lukey exhaust.
Max Power = 144.6 rwkw (03/05/2008)

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 Post subject: Re: Engine rebuild parts list/cost/requirements/information
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:43 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EF-XR8chaser

Location: wollongong
NSW, Australia

phongus wrote:
Got a fair few quotes on different parts the last couple of days from different places...but mainly stuck to Repco and Bursons.

EDIT-Forgot to mention that only Repco supplied ACL race rebuild kit as a local auto supplier. Engine rebuilders can too but haven't priced it.

Repco
ACL Race rebuild kit - $668 + freight from ACL (QLD)
Nason Oil pump - $150
Nason Timing chain kit - $149
GMB water pump (incl. pulley) - $101.20
"Precision" Harmonic Balancer - $97.25

Bursons
"Precision" Oil pump - $170
Durotec Timining Chain kit - $144.80
GMB water pump (incl. pulley) - $108.35
Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $111.50

VPW
JP High flow oil pump - $96.17 (according to website...not sure if that incl. GST, $106 if not included)
Powerbond Harmonic Balancer - $145.55 (again from website, add more if GST no included)

I've also checked stuff from Ford with George (Papa Smurf) and local Bayford spare parts in Campbellfied, but some of the items are rather more pricier as you'd expect so most of the items will be aftermarket.

Welsh plugs were all pretty much similar in price...but I rounded it up to $4.00 per brass plug.

Ebay has also been good with prices. I posted previously that there was a cheap GMB water pump, however I failed to notice it wasn't for the EL. No I did not buy it :P, however I did also link to a Nason Timing kit which I have purchased at $84...not sure if you could get it cheaper, but the "Buy It" button combined with the words Free Postage got the better of me. I don't think I could have afforded anything else in regards to Timing Chain Kits, have heard good things from Rolon and good reliability (also some bad stuff such as chain adruptly snapping on some other model cars due to less stretching? could be rumours), but Nason were also noted as reliable and have been run by many people without issues...added with cheaper price it was a winner.

Anyways that's as much as I can afford this month...I have limited myself to buying one item per month as to not bankrupt myself so it will be a while before I even get to complete this engine.

To add to the price list, I have gotten myself some quotes in regards to block checked, acid washed/bathed, surface straighten (decked or whatever it's called) and honed. Only called up 2 places...Place A charged $220, B $250. Balancing crank at A was $140 and at B $100. Not much difference between the 2. Also add maybe $200 on top for balancing the whole complete unit (pistons/rods/crank/flywheel/clutch etc).

Hope that helps anyone out there doing the same thing at the moment. Pretty sure prices will vary so budget more.

get a price from a engine reconditioner for the lot-mine gets a good price

 

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