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| unclewoja |
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The other thing that I NEVER see anyong consider in terms of drivetrain losses is ancillary losses. Power figures quoted by car companies are without any ancillaries.
So, we have our 6 cyl falcon putting out 157kW @ the fly. You must take from that approx the following figures. 5kW for P/S pump, up to 15kW for stock zorst system (when you run an engine on a dyno it's very uncommon to have the entire, 2m of factory exhaust complete with cat and mufflers and everything hanging off the engine. The full system can suck up to 15kW), possibly up to 5kW for alternator... depends if they run the engine electrics from an external source. You're losing minimum 15kW from that 157 kW when you put the engine in the car, so the maximum realistic fly wheel figure for the Falcon engine is 142 kW. That 15kW you lose isn't even getting to the flywheel to be lost through the drive train. An even more realistic flywheel power figure for the Falcon engine, especially if it's done a bit of work is more like 135kW. |
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| FPV_GTp |
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unclewoja wrote: The other thing that I NEVER see anyong consider in terms of drivetrain losses is ancillary losses. Power figures quoted by car companies are without any ancillaries.
So, we have our 6 cyl falcon putting out 157kW @ the fly. You must take from that approx the following figures. 5kW for P/S pump, up to 15kW for stock zorst system (when you run an engine on a dyno it's very uncommon to have the entire, 2m of factory exhaust complete with cat and mufflers and everything hanging off the engine. The full system can suck up to 15kW), possibly up to 5kW for alternator... depends if they run the engine electrics from an external source. You're losing minimum 15kW from that 157 kW when you put the engine in the car, so the maximum realistic fly wheel figure for the Falcon engine is 142 kW. That 15kW you lose isn't even getting to the flywheel to be lost through the drive train. An even more realistic flywheel power figure for the Falcon engine, especially if it's done a bit of work is more like 135kW. hi u will find when factory car manufactures when mapping there engine management systems use the whole exhaust system and all the accessories too on the engines when on the engine dyno u would be supprised the difference in air/fuel ratio and ignition timing mapps if the exhaust system isnt used yes, some of the manufactures dont use all accessories while the engine is on a engine dyno cheers
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks |
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| EFFalcon |
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actually you will find when ford quoted the 157kw, it wasnt with all the ancilleries.
there was discrepencies back in the day with the 157kw engine underperforming on chassis dyno's and this was due to them not being 157kw *in* the car.
_________________ FALCN6 - EF GLi Turbo, 20" Rims, Air Bag Suspension, Straight LPG, 225rwkw |
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| Slick |
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EFFalcon wrote: the figures that ford quoted originally (ie. 157kw) was without ancilleries. fords owners manual : 157kw - 33% taxable kw. so you'll end up with a lousy 105kw atw when theres a load demand eg: electrical. air cond. on top of what you've lost on driving gears
even the load that headlights put on the alt effect overall power. (by tenths of a kw) greater power through drive train = more heat = more losses. same applies with other types of drive train losses
_________________ Mind f**k!!! it works on feeble minded ignorant sheeples... there's plenty of em on this site... some are very intelligent but by god they are so thick!!! Pakrat wrote: You can buy them seppertly
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| pyroay |
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Age: 44 Posts: 2121 Joined: 14th Dec 2004 Ride: FG Turbo Territoty Ghia Location: Traralgon |
I had to have 3 guys on the back of my car + strapped down ont he dyno to get the power down and even then it still broke traction on the dyno.
Perhaps the 255's aren't wide enough....
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| Slick |
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pyroay wrote: I had to have 3 guys on the back of my car + strapped down ont he dyno to get the power down and even then it still broke traction on the dyno.
Perhaps the 255's aren't wide enough....  hehehehehe
_________________ Mind f**k!!! it works on feeble minded ignorant sheeples... there's plenty of em on this site... some are very intelligent but by god they are so thick!!! Pakrat wrote: You can buy them seppertly
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| FPV_GTp |
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hi
a high horsepower car can be properly secured to a chassis dyno and need no people in the boot or back seat there are ways of securing it down on the rollers and illimate tyre slippage cheers
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks |
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| RustyEF |
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On the dyno last night, mate in his
EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost Does this give you any idea on the power gains from the simple mods. cheers kyle
_________________ -------EL Fairmont Ghia with CUstome BA XR body kit------- |
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| FPV_GTp |
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hi
this is not gospal - jsut a example and its very close to some of the results i get on my dyno *********************************************** Ford factory quoted horsepower / kiwatt figures as follows EF and EL falcon 6 cylinders power = 157kwatts @ 4900 rpm torque = 355Nm @ 3000 rpm these figures are at the flywheel so follow the method i have posted in here in this thread u convert that to rear wheel power and u will get approx 105.2 kwatts so i would expect to see from a stock standard EF or EL 6 cylinder on a chassis dyno approximately 105.2 rear wheel kwatts ************************************************ "EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. " 124.3 - 105.2 = 19.1 RWKwatts so from the figures u have from the dyno u have maded a 19.1 RWKwatt inprovement on the EF "My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost " 129.3 - 105.2 = 24.1 WRKwatt inprovement on the EL
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks |
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| RustyEF |
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Thast right, the EL is a tickford engine, dont know if there is much differnce between the engines,
but these results are the runs with no pod filter. or no intake. just straight to the throttle body. and it was like 4-5 rwkw loss differnce with the pod filter on. jsut the maximum power to wheels without pod.. cheers.
_________________ -------EL Fairmont Ghia with CUstome BA XR body kit------- |
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| unclewoja |
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FPV_GTp wrote: hi
this is not gospal - jsut a example and its very close to some of the results i get on my dyno *********************************************** Ford factory quoted horsepower / kiwatt figures as follows EF and EL falcon 6 cylinders power = 157kwatts @ 4900 rpm torque = 355Nm @ 3000 rpm these figures are at the flywheel so follow the method i have posted in here in this thread u convert that to rear wheel power and u will get approx 105.2 kwatts so i would expect to see from a stock standard EF or EL 6 cylinder on a chassis dyno approximately 105.2 rear wheel kwatts ************************************************ "EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. " 124.3 - 105.2 = 19.1 RWKwatts so from the figures u have from the dyno u have maded a 19.1 RWKwatt inprovement on the EF "My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost " 129.3 - 105.2 = 24.1 WRKwatt inprovement on the EL No, he hasn't made a 19.1kW and 24.1kW improvement. Fact is, you don't know what improvement was made because there are no dyno figures posted of each car before the exhaust upgrade. There is no way an exhaust upgrade can give you up to 34kW increase @ the flywheel. How about you get a bunch of dyno graphs from YOUR dyno and post them here to prove your calculations instead using 30year old estimates? |
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| mrnasty |
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Quote: I had to have 3 guys on the back of my car + strapped down ont he dyno to get the power down and even then it still broke traction on the dyno.
Perhaps the 255's aren't wide enough It looks mad though!!! my housemates 312rwkw VT SS shredded 235's on the APS dyno in frankston, and APS's blue VZ ute shredded 265's on the dyno, at 410rwkw. such a cool thing to watch!
_________________ Cougar Zero makes my pants fit nice. |
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| FPV_GTp |
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unclewoja wrote: FPV_GTp wrote: hi this is not gospal - jsut a example and its very close to some of the results i get on my dyno *********************************************** Ford factory quoted horsepower / kiwatt figures as follows EF and EL falcon 6 cylinders power = 157kwatts @ 4900 rpm torque = 355Nm @ 3000 rpm these figures are at the flywheel so follow the method i have posted in here in this thread u convert that to rear wheel power and u will get approx 105.2 kwatts so i would expect to see from a stock standard EF or EL 6 cylinder on a chassis dyno approximately 105.2 rear wheel kwatts ************************************************ "EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. " 124.3 - 105.2 = 19.1 RWKwatts so from the figures u have from the dyno u have maded a 19.1 RWKwatt inprovement on the EF "My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost " 129.3 - 105.2 = 24.1 WRKwatt inprovement on the EL No, he hasn't made a 19.1kW and 24.1kW improvement. Fact is, you don't know what improvement was made because there are no dyno figures posted of each car before the exhaust upgrade. There is no way an exhaust upgrade can give you up to 34kW increase @ the flywheel. How about you get a bunch of dyno graphs from YOUR dyno and post them here to prove your calculations instead using 30year old estimates? hi quick question to u unclewoja ???? what experience do u have with working on dynos unclewoja ???and what do u do for a trade or form of work ??? seems u always referring to some past figure of 30 years ago . the facts are simple ford quote a figure and this gentleman has quoted figures of a chassis dyno and 1 + 1 = 2 simple so u prove me wrong . if im wrong what are the improvements from u experience . cause i have run theses standard cars on my dyno and have figures to refer to , what validates ur argument that im wrong ??? i have been running my dyno for past ten years and not to mention been building and racing cars for the past 20 years and ur age is what 23 ? here is the math's does anyone have a stock standard falcon that there planning to enhance the performance of there car , ie do some modifications. i will donate dyno time just to show unclewoja how things work. unclewoja u attack me in another posting , and since u could answer my question in post u and ur mate attack my grammer and punctuation so lets get this out in the open since ur such a expert on chassis dynos. why would i over quote figures ?
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks Last edited by FPV_GTp on Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total. |
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| FPV_GTp |
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unclewoja wrote: FPV_GTp wrote: hi this is not gospal - jsut a example and its very close to some of the results i get on my dyno *********************************************** Ford factory quoted horsepower / kiwatt figures as follows EF and EL falcon 6 cylinders power = 157kwatts @ 4900 rpm torque = 355Nm @ 3000 rpm these figures are at the flywheel so follow the method i have posted in here in this thread u convert that to rear wheel power and u will get approx 105.2 kwatts so i would expect to see from a stock standard EF or EL 6 cylinder on a chassis dyno approximately 105.2 rear wheel kwatts ************************************************ "EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. " 124.3 - 105.2 = 19.1 RWKwatts so from the figures u have from the dyno u have maded a 19.1 RWKwatt inprovement on the EF "My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost " 129.3 - 105.2 = 24.1 WRKwatt inprovement on the EL No, he hasn't made a 19.1kW and 24.1kW improvement. Fact is, you don't know what improvement was made because there are no dyno figures posted of each car before the exhaust upgrade. There is no way an exhaust upgrade can give you up to 34kW increase @ the flywheel. How about you get a bunch of dyno graphs from YOUR dyno and post them here to prove your calculations instead using 30year old estimates? hi again " are no dyno figures posted of each car before the exhaust upgrade. There is no way an exhaust upgrade can give you up to 34kW increase @ the flywheel." are u sure on this last comment ?? i had a XY falcon 351 cleveland 4spd toplaoder 9 inch diff recently that produces 179 rwkwatts with exhaust on and remove the exhaust of and run straight out extractors the car produced 221 rwkwatts so be careful on some of ur comments cheers
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks |
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| FPV_GTp |
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RustyEF wrote: On the dyno last night, mate in his
EF Fairmont Ghia - Pacemaker extractors, 2 1/2" Redback exhaust and hiflow cat Ran 124.3rwkw @ 5200rpm with no intake and with octane boots. My EL Fairmont ghia - Scavenger Extractors, 2 1/2" Mandral bent Exhaust and Hiflow cat Ran 129.3rwkw @ 4900rpm with no intake and with octane boost Does this give you any idea on the power gains from the simple mods. cheers kyle hi rusty rusty is it possible u and ur mate have dyno figures before and after the modificatiosn ?? if so is it possible to list them also and what chassis dyno did u have ur cars run on ???? cheers
_________________ WANTED - Complete BTr4 and zf 6hp26 automatic transmission 6 cylinder and V8 transmission(s) suit rebuild? Drop me a PM if you can help would be greatly appreciated - thanks |
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