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Lifters, Shims 

 

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 Post subject: Lifters, Shims
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:40 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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My lifters were rattling bad so I got a mate to look under the rocker cover. Turns out the 1st lifter (closest to you on your right when looking under the bonnet) is really loose; he took out the little hydraulic lifter and the shim and they were both pretty damaged. He pressed on the top of all the lifters, which were all pretty firm and didn't move much at all but the rattling one was real loose.

He fitted a new hydraulic lifter but didn't put a shim on it. Now the car sounds like a tractor and its really mental.. lumpy as s**t, rattles, stalls, LOUD AS F**K etc etc. ALOT worse then before he did anything. I have an R4 camshaft so is the reason why my car went REAL bad due to him not putting in a shim on the one hydraulic lifter he replaced?

Now he said coz my car is 300,000km old, I should replace all of the lifters because since they are all old, better to do them all at once. When I replace them, how do I shim up the one hydraulic lifter? Is it just take lifter out and put it in with a shim on the top? I read in a post here that there's a retainer? I have the damaged hydraulic lifter and shim with me and I can't see a retainer, it just looks like the shim sits on top of the thing and pop them both into the lifter which should hold them in place. Am I wrong?

Also, any idea how much the set of lifters would cost me? Is that the same thing as the "machined RPD rocker gear" which was supposed to remove the need for shims? When calling Bayford, should I ask for Lifters (it's not the little hydraulic lifters that I need... its the entire assembly that sits over the top of the camshaft and has the 12 or so arms over the springs) or is it called Rocker Gear?


Also, anyone got a pic of the machined RPD Rocker Gear?

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:47 pm 
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Lifters are the little hydraulic things that sit in the end of the rocker arms, they are the things you shim to make up for the reduced base circle of the cam.
Are you saying you need new rocker gear?
I doubt it.
THe RPD machined rocker gear machined down the pedestals of the rocker rack, and redressed the cam journals of the rocker rack, bringing the rockers closer to the cam lobes, taking up the reduced base circle.
Same thing as shimming, different way of doing it.
If you only need one shim for the cam a machined rocker gear isn't needed IMO.

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:50 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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Sorry to steal a pic from Jay's guide but the circled bit in red is the "lifter" I am talking about. When my mate pressed down on it, it moved. But when he pressed down on the other ones, they were firm and didn't move.

If I can remember right there are 6 on the exhaust side bolted together and 6 on the intake side bolted together.. I was told to just replace them all. Is the whole set (both intake and exhaust) called Rocker gear? And would the RPD rocker gear be exactly the same (modified in whatever way ofcourse.. but mainly do they come with both exhaust and intake together..assuming its even the same part).

 

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Sorry I should have mentioned that all hydraulic lifters were shimmed when the cam was installed a few months ago.. but this one on the end was rattling because it was damaged so it was replaced. When he replaced it, he didn't replace the shim as well, he just put it back in without a shim. Now the car is running REALLY bad. Before this, it was running normal but rattled. Is the reason its running real bad because he didn't put in that one shim on that one hydraulic lifter? Would something so small cause my engine to run so bad?

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Also, how do you shim the hydraulic lifters? Just pop them in with the shim on top? Or is there a retainer (I can't see a retainer on the one I have with me.. it just looks like u sit the shim on top and pop it in.. the shim doesn't even clip onto the top of the hydraulic lifter.. just sits there??)

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Yes, you need the shim to make up for the reduced base circle on the cam lobe, the valve won't be opening all the way, and the lifter will be lifting completely off the valve, and coming back down again, hence ticking/rattling.
Also, depending on clearance, it could fall out, or slip sideways and break the rocker arm.

The bit you have circled in the pic is the rocker arm, NOT the lifter, the lifter is the little thing in the end that activates the valve.
And the really ALL should have some movement, the lifters aren't solid, they pump up with oil pressure, and you don't shim them HARD up against the valve stem.

The retainer you are referring to is a rubber o-ring around the lifter, some people take them off when shimming to prevent the lifter hanging up in the rocker arm and possibly ticking.

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:30 pm 
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Rocker arm ay. He said I should replace the whole arm because it is worn out.. he pressed on it and it moved down alot and tapped. If the others moved while he pressed them, then they didn't move much at all. But this one seemed loose and moved quite abit.

I know its not much to go by but would you think that the whole arm needs to be replaced? The shim was damaged a fair bit and the lifter was bent a little on the side that sits above the spring.

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Quote:
I know its not much to go by but would you think that the whole arm needs to be replaced? The shim was damaged a fair bit and the lifter was bent a little on the side that sits above the spring.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere LOL
So the lifter (HLA, little hydraulic thing at end of rocker arm) was bent?
Has it snapped a neat a little slot in the end of the rocker arm?

If so, then YES you need a new rocker arm, hit up pick a part, EA-B and early ED arms are different, make sure its EF arm, or an early EL arm, late EL is different too.

If no, then its good, rocker arms dont usually bend, they snap and crack, because they are high tensile.

Sounds like the lifter was never shimmed correctly to start with if it managed to escape from the rocker arm.
Who installeld your cam, did they check lifter clearance, or just whack an extra shim in and say "she'll be sweet mate".

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:09 pm 
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On the HLA, the side that sits on the spring is a little bent. I've circled it in this very blurry photo, that side is abit bent in so when you look at the HLA from the bottom, the metal is D shaped, instead of circle. Note the bent bit is the metal with holes on it and not that little metal piece thats attached inside the HLA.

Most likely they just whacked it in. The shims came from RPD with the camshaft so I assume they would be the right size.

I'll have to look inside the rocker arm when the cover comes off again to see if there is any damage.

 

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:20 pm 
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Did that rocker arm have any sideways movement? If so then it needs to be replaced, apart from that i would just replace that single lifter.

Im not sure where to buy cheap aftermarket lifters, maybe try Repco, but certainly dont go to Ford cause they will charge you $60 :shock: for a single lifter.

Of course if your cashed up then you might as well replace the lot while you have the rocker gear off.

And the retaining clip is just a little plastic clip which helps it slot into the rocker arm, very useful when refitting the rocker gear, or else you'll have to muck around a sticky tape each arm to keep the lifters and shims from falling out
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:28 pm 
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No the arm didn't move sideways. The lifter was replaced so I think it may have been shimmed incorrectly. I'll buy some shims and see if that helps. Which way do I measure the shims so I know what size I need?

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:36 pm 
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Any special method for shimming the lifters? Or just fit the lifter with the shim on top?

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:25 pm 
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You just whacked in the shims that came with the cam?
Thats your problem right there.
Read the RPD doco again, concentrating on the bit where you measure lifter clearance to determine how many shims to use.

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:39 pm 
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Nah I didn't install the cam.. it was installed by Williamstown Dyno Tune.

These retaining clips... the bag of shims I received never came with them.. and when this lifter was taken out there was no retaining clip. Are they necessary for shim install?

 

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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:17 pm 
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mr_rx7_ wrote:
These retaining clips... the bag of shims I received never came with them.. and when this lifter was taken out there was no retaining clip. Are they necessary for shim install?


Normally they crumble to nothing when the lifter is pulled out. They are not necessary as ive changed a couple lifters with just with some tape around the rocker arm holding everything in place, until you start tightening the rocker gear down just remove the tape.

But last time i changed the lifters i used the retaining clips and it made life a whole lot easier as you didnt have to worry about taping the rocker arms up as the lifters just sit there
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