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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:21 am 
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Delta wrote:
efmarek wrote:
"I MOLESTED MYSELF LAST NIGHT. I SAID NO, BUT I KNEW I WANTED IT"


HAHAHA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


you seriously sound like a moron, but anyway onto some chem.

The stoic afr for unleaded petrol is around 14.7:1, which is the boundary ratio required for complete combustion, ie if every oxygen molecule can find a fuel molecule during combustion then both will be completely used up. This DOES NOT mean that the reaction has been most efficient!!! There are plenty of reactions in chem which are performed under a condition of excess of one or the other reagent. There are a very large number of factors to consider for this kind of reaction, piston speed (hence the time you can actually combust for), pressure, temperature limits of materials, instantaneous strengths of components etc, all come into play.

In general the leaner a mixture is, the faster it burns, due to the fact that the fuel molecule is much slower moving than an air molecule and with a leaner mixture the probablility of a fuel molecule pairing with an oxygen molecule is much higher. This however introduces the posibility of random flame fronts which interfere (insipent detonation) AT SOME AFRS AND AT HIGH CYLINDER PRESSURES, but mostly at those afrs close to or slightly leaner than stoic (14.7-20:1). To combat this we can do many things, but reducing cylinder pressure by "buffering" is one way, you add fuel which makes the mixture rich, this means that a molecule CAN'T find an oxygen molecule to burn with in the usual way. but if you cram them close enough another reaction takes place, where carbon monoxide is produced instead of carbon dioxide, to cram them closer together and to move the molecules fast enough so that they actually find this rarer case requires more heat energy absorbed by the fuel molecules, which slows the reaction and makes the reaction cooler, at the expense in this case of energy production.

The COMPLETE opposite of this is to perform the reaction in a MASSIVE excess of air, in this case a fuel molecule can very very easily find an oxygen molecule and the resultant reaction is much cleaner and produces more energy than a rich mixture, however now the reaction does not form a flame front, more it forms a pressure front. In this case you are actually trying to spontaneously detonate the mixture! Spontaneous detonation is were a chain reaction causes massive cylinder pressure due to the reaction happening spontaneously in many or all pats of the chamber at the same time rather than in a front. This is generally VERY dangerous at mixtures around stoic or slighty leaner, however the amount of nitrogen in air tends to help buffer this IF enough air is present. Hence you need afrs around 25-35:1 (IIRC) which allows complete combustion, and still allows a reasonable amount of air to form a buffer, and transfer the energy by compressing the buffering air, which then releases that energy by expansion much more slowly than the pressure front which is generated in the explosion.

This very lean system of combustion is the way in which continuous fire engines work, otherwise they would melt all their internal parts. IE a jet turbine engine uses a dense energy fuel which takes a long time to burn, thus it burns cooler, however since it is burning the fuel CONTINUOUSLY it would still impart enough energy to destroy parts, so the reaction takes place in a massive excess of air and runs a lambda of 1.9-2.1 or so. The unburnt air is used as a heat buffer - it transfers heat energy into potential energy and kinetic energy by moving the molecules closer together, and making them vibrate/move faster this energy is transfered later in the cycle (at the turbine) where a pressure differential and heat differential turns the tubine of the jet engine.

bah, seriosuly long post and I still have lots more to say and I've only scratched the surface....

lets sumarize for those who can't be bothered reading

stoic AFR has nothing to do with peak efficiency.

and engine CAN run at an AFR of 30:1 (or so, under certain circumstances)

these plugs (if they do what they claim) actually INDUCE detonation (sort of - detonation as defined as a spontaneous explosion at many points in the chamber) but in a way that means you can get lots of power from a very lean afr.

efmarek: it is obvious since you did not offer an explanation like this that you know nothing of the chemistry or physics involved, and that you are highly likely to be just another moron sprouting someone elses crap. Please prove me wrong by entering into a realistic and insightful debate about what I have just said, and what you know of the product rather than mouthing off, as if you do just mouth off, you prove that your a moron....and I have no time for morons.

hey, im not getting into this debate, i just wanted to point out, your insulting efmarek for "sprouting someone else's crap", but your post is obviously copied.
when your typing, you dont use capital letters. your copied stuff uses capitals, plus also goes on to talk about jet engines?
lets all be honest: noone knows what there on about.
were all just retards

also, what makes you think having excess oxygen will favor a reaction that uses less oxygen?
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:24 am 
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So The computer has to be either exchanged or a remapped chip fitted.
Are these being sold together with the plugs?
Or do you have to pay for your own development of the complete remap
and oxygen sensor that works at these lean air/fuel mixtures?
How much will the whole package cost?
Again I think I'll stick with what the engineers at ford have provided.
Just for the time being at least.Ha Ha
I think they might just know a teensie bit more about combustion principles than you.

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:52 pm 
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does anyone even know if these things are on the market?

i'll buy one and stick it in a kart engine and dyno it against what we usually run. im willing to sacrifice a piston for this

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:24 pm 
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Your all a bunch of idiots.

Your still gonna be argueing against these plugs once there out and everyone's using them!

And YES, the Plasma fills the WHOLE combustion chamber instantaneously....igniting the whole mix at the SAME TIME.

still dont get it?!

Well...what that means is......it releases all the energy in one go....so u use less FUEL

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Still reading and laughing :lol:

hmm, wonder why these plugs have been around for so long and nobody will build them?

Just read some info on these - the guy that made them is all over the shop. One minute he is saying he has never measured the power increase, next minute he says he gets 33hp extra running these plugs. Also love the claim it will raise your redline by 800rpm.

Also interesting to read what a couple of automotive engineers say - to summarise - snake oil

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Delta wrote:
joshannon.7 wrote:
at 21 yrs old and 30 posts. what exactly are you backing urself up with.

engineering degree?
Mechanic with exp?
Science degree?
Or cos you asked the bloke who invented them and he said so?


To add to my previous post (as I only have 37 posts and I'm only 25) I have an engineering degree and am currently undertaking a PhD, I also teach university students in the areas of engineering, physics, and motorsports. Hopefully that is enough to recommend me, haha, If not then I guess I retract my earlier physics and chemistry lecture ;)


At least you have something inteligent to say on the subject. and can back up what you say. the other tool just tells everyone theyre wrong and wont explain himself. maybe if he did we would listen.

 

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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:14 pm 
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elvondel wrote:
Delta wrote:
efmarek wrote:
"I MOLESTED MYSELF LAST NIGHT. I SAID NO, BUT I KNEW I WANTED IT"


HAHAHA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


you seriously sound like a moron, but anyway onto some chem.

The stoic afr for unleaded petrol is around 14.7:1, which is the boundary ratio required for complete combustion, ie if every oxygen molecule can find a fuel molecule during combustion then both will be completely used up. This DOES NOT mean that the reaction has been most efficient!!! There are plenty of reactions in chem which are performed under a condition of excess of one or the other reagent. There are a very large number of factors to consider for this kind of reaction, piston speed (hence the time you can actually combust for), pressure, temperature limits of materials, instantaneous strengths of components etc, all come into play.

In general the leaner a mixture is, the faster it burns, due to the fact that the fuel molecule is much slower moving than an air molecule and with a leaner mixture the probablility of a fuel molecule pairing with an oxygen molecule is much higher. This however introduces the posibility of random flame fronts which interfere (insipent detonation) AT SOME AFRS AND AT HIGH CYLINDER PRESSURES, but mostly at those afrs close to or slightly leaner than stoic (14.7-20:1). To combat this we can do many things, but reducing cylinder pressure by "buffering" is one way, you add fuel which makes the mixture rich, this means that a molecule CAN'T find an oxygen molecule to burn with in the usual way. but if you cram them close enough another reaction takes place, where carbon monoxide is produced instead of carbon dioxide, to cram them closer together and to move the molecules fast enough so that they actually find this rarer case requires more heat energy absorbed by the fuel molecules, which slows the reaction and makes the reaction cooler, at the expense in this case of energy production.

The COMPLETE opposite of this is to perform the reaction in a MASSIVE excess of air, in this case a fuel molecule can very very easily find an oxygen molecule and the resultant reaction is much cleaner and produces more energy than a rich mixture, however now the reaction does not form a flame front, more it forms a pressure front. In this case you are actually trying to spontaneously detonate the mixture! Spontaneous detonation is were a chain reaction causes massive cylinder pressure due to the reaction happening spontaneously in many or all pats of the chamber at the same time rather than in a front. This is generally VERY dangerous at mixtures around stoic or slighty leaner, however the amount of nitrogen in air tends to help buffer this IF enough air is present. Hence you need afrs around 25-35:1 (IIRC) which allows complete combustion, and still allows a reasonable amount of air to form a buffer, and transfer the energy by compressing the buffering air, which then releases that energy by expansion much more slowly than the pressure front which is generated in the explosion.

This very lean system of combustion is the way in which continuous fire engines work, otherwise they would melt all their internal parts. IE a jet turbine engine uses a dense energy fuel which takes a long time to burn, thus it burns cooler, however since it is burning the fuel CONTINUOUSLY it would still impart enough energy to destroy parts, so the reaction takes place in a massive excess of air and runs a lambda of 1.9-2.1 or so. The unburnt air is used as a heat buffer - it transfers heat energy into potential energy and kinetic energy by moving the molecules closer together, and making them vibrate/move faster this energy is transfered later in the cycle (at the turbine) where a pressure differential and heat differential turns the tubine of the jet engine.

bah, seriosuly long post and I still have lots more to say and I've only scratched the surface....

lets sumarize for those who can't be bothered reading

stoic AFR has nothing to do with peak efficiency.

and engine CAN run at an AFR of 30:1 (or so, under certain circumstances)

these plugs (if they do what they claim) actually INDUCE detonation (sort of - detonation as defined as a spontaneous explosion at many points in the chamber) but in a way that means you can get lots of power from a very lean afr.

efmarek: it is obvious since you did not offer an explanation like this that you know nothing of the chemistry or physics involved, and that you are highly likely to be just another moron sprouting someone elses crap. Please prove me wrong by entering into a realistic and insightful debate about what I have just said, and what you know of the product rather than mouthing off, as if you do just mouth off, you prove that your a moron....and I have no time for morons.

hey, im not getting into this debate, i just wanted to point out, your insulting efmarek for "sprouting someone else's crap", but your post is obviously copied.
when your typing, you dont use capital letters. your copied stuff uses capitals, plus also goes on to talk about jet engines?
lets all be honest: noone knows what there on about.
were all just retards

also, what makes you think having excess oxygen will favor a reaction that uses less oxygen?


Not a single word of what I wrote was copied. I was tired, so I appologise if some of it was not punctuated correctly or whatever. Read it again, I didn't say that having excess oxygen favours the reaction that uses less oxygen, I said it favours the reaction that uses more oxygen, and produces carbon dioxide rather than carbon monoxide.

Taking a simple case (in real life there are around 150-200 different hydrocarbons in petrol) the complete combustion of Octane is

2x C8H18 + 25x O2 -> 16x CO2 + 18x H2O

and incomplete combustion forming only carbon monoxide (its also possible to produce carbon)

2x C8H18 + 17x O2 -> 16x CO + 18x H2O

I don't remember the heat outputs, but the second equation returns less heat.

So, having an excess of air favours the first reation, using more oxygen, producing carbon dioxide and more heat. Having not enough oxygen promotes some incomplete combustion, which forms carbon monoxide and less heat (hence less power for the same amount of fuel burnt)

I used the jet engine as an example because it was a situation I knew to be combustion in excess of air - so why not use it? I suppose I could also use diesel engines as an example, so moving from normal engines to another type makes it coppied??

efmarek: THats what I just said - if these plugs do what they claim they do, then they actaully induce a type of detonation known as spontaneous combustion. Just because I put it in chemical terms doesn't mean I'm saying your wrong. The fact that you have no idea what I'm talking about, and continue to rant using the same "advertisment" terms, says to me that you know nothing. If these plugs do what they say they do, then we will have some very good plugs on the market for VLB engines, where you want to induce detonation in a very lean mixture. I'm now waiting to see if they DO fulfill their claims. I'll leave my judgement of the actual plugs untill I see a working example being tested by a third party. Until then I've told you what the possible advantages are.... IF IT WORKS.
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:22 pm 
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I can concur with the information Delta has been talking about. I have studied (not as much as Delta I'm sure) in detail the workings of piston engine and Jet engines.

I look forward to technological advances like these plugs coming to end users. If they perform as claimed I'm sure we will all benefit. Until then people ear bashing others intelligence levels with little or no comprehension of the science involved with it at all are seriously asking for abuse back.

If you can back it up, say it.. if u can't.. good luck with being flamed...

Defiant.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:15 am 
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efmarek wrote:
......And YES, the Plasma fills the WHOLE combustion chamber instantaneously....igniting the whole mix at the SAME TIME.

still dont get it?!

Well...what that means is......it releases all the energy in one go....so u use less FUEL


lets forget all this air-fuel ratio BS for a tic. its a load of hocus pocus for the uneducated fool. that, and a stock computer would go nuts with a AF ratio of 40:1 or something, it would simply not like to lean out THAT MUCH! its designed not to

Can we talk about two basic question....

Being that these things release all the fuels energy more as a shock wave because its getting all the fuel to ignite at once. it's not burning a chain reaction like at cold start or igniting due to a significant pressure (like diesel does, im not sure if thats possible or happens) Can we all agree that can only mean that a cleaner burn is achieved? Thus a improvment in economy? This would come about from having more initial shock wave and less of the energy turned to heat, for sake of the argument. and if this is happening, Could we say that a 8% - 15% increase MIGHT (but maybe less) could be achieved?

The next question is what would happen to the pistons? ive seen pistons with holes in the dead centre. ok, most likely due to the motor being WAY too hot. But in this case, seeings the engine has less heat, Is it possible the incredibly large spark could act like an arc welder to a rising piston? this wouldn't be outside the realm of possiblities either. i've seen this done after a guy put a spark in a motor that a different engine builder suggested it. arc welded a hole right in the top.

So two questions. could we just get some feedback on these, then the chemists and scientists can continue to fight over it.

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:56 am 
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The Firestorms dont create an "arc", dude.

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:15 pm 
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Basically the current alloy heads & pistons won't last that long if you were to run 40:1 AFR.

not only that, the coolent will boil!!! :shock:

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:54 pm 
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efmarek wrote:
The Firestorms dont create an "arc", dude.


Im talking more about the heat from the spark itself.

Slick wrote:
Basically the current alloy heads & pistons won't last that long if you were to run 40:1 AFR.

not only that, the coolent will boil!!! :shock:

and i disagree, the fuel would wouldn't create a big enough fire. EGT is highest at stoitch

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Have you seen the damage a lean engine can do?

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:16 pm 
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d***head.....your talking bout running an engine at 40:1 with a NORMAL SPARK PLUG.

The firestorms make combustion temperatures LOWER.

 

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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:28 pm 
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efmarek wrote:
d***head.....your talking bout running an engine at 40:1 with a NORMAL SPARK PLUG.

The firestorms make combustion temperatures LOWER.

Firestorms? In my combustion chamber? Call the CFA!

Could you explain yourself AT ALL, or are you going to keep making cryptic posts and putting other people down?

 

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