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NL Concorde engine - correct timing -Vs Fairlane 

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:46 pm 
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In the last 2 weeks, I have:

replaced leads. (Top Gun 8.5m)
plugs. rotor and dissy cap.
Had Fuel injection serviced (off car, ultrasonic)

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:55 pm 
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It could be the dizzy/tfi itself playing up.. Or even the coil getting old and missing every now and then.

But I have also never seen an EL XR6 engine that didn't have a slight miss at idle every now and then. You could sit at the lights for a couple of mins and in that time you'd feel 2 or 3 slight misses. But otherwise the car doesn't miss a beat.

And if the timing is not correct, it will cause a low idle.

Thats why I asked if you had a timing light. There is nothing better than making sure the work is done correctly, rather than trusting that someone else has done it correctly.
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:11 pm 
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arm79 wrote:
You could sit at the lights for a couple of mins and in that time you'd feel 2 or 3 slight misses. But otherwise the car doesn't miss a beat.


Well thats aboutt he size of it.
Its maintains 690 - 700rpm while in zdrive at the lights.. with just a few slight misses in a few minutes.

Maybe I am being a bit pedantic.

Quote:
And if the timing is not correct, it will cause a low idle.

Thats why I asked if you had a timing light. There is nothing better than making sure the work is done correctly, rather than trusting that someone else has done it correctly.


Being very green.. i could probably get my hands on a timing light.

What exactly would i need to do to check it?

Also.. as i mentioned.. if i nudge the acc. just a tad to bring the idle from 690 to say 710 , it smooths right out (in drive)

If i hit the idle adjustment screw to bring it up just say 5rpm more...??

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Sounds exactly like a stock EL XR engine to me. I always thought it was a trait of that engine.

Timing lights are cheap. You could get one from supercrap for the $30ish mark. Its just a matter of hooking up a few wires and clamps and watching the mark on the balancer. As I said, on these engines, and few degrees advanced or retarded (mainly retarded) will cause a low idle. The engines seem reasonably sensitive to timing changes.

If you get hold of a timing light, then we can describe the exact process.
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:57 pm 
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arm79 wrote:
No... Base timing on all EF/EL I6's is 0 deg.


If i set my EL Fairming Ghia to 0 deg it has absolutely no power, if setting to 10 deg BTDC its fine. The timing was set in test mode. Does this sound right!
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:19 pm 
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joolz wrote:
arm79 wrote:
No... Base timing on all EF/EL I6's is 0 deg.


If i set my EL Fairming Ghia to 0 deg it has absolutely no power, if setting to 10 deg BTDC its fine. The timing was set in test mode. Does this sound right!


http://www.fordmods.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=666180#666180

Read my posts in that thread. It will show you how to properly set timing in an EL.

And EL's dont run a 10 deg idle timing. Its a bit more, like 15/16 deg. So chances are you are even still robbing yourself of power.

Setting timing to 0 when not in proper base timing mode will mean you are running nearly 15deg retarded everywhere.
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:11 pm 
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arm79 wrote:

If you get hold of a timing light, then we can describe the exact process.

I have organised with a mate to go over to one of his mates place who has a timing light on Sat morning.

Assuming I know absolutely NOTHING. Could yu explain the process in detail please.

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:21 pm 
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Shrude wrote:
arm79 wrote:

If you get hold of a timing light, then we can describe the exact process.

I have organised with a mate to go over to one of his mates place who has a timing light on Sat morning.

Assuming I know absolutely NOTHING. Could yu explain the process in detail please.


1. Hook the timing light up to the terminals - +ve, -ve and number 1 ignition lead and remove the intake snorkle.
2. Put the car into diagnostics mode by shorting out the necessary terminals.
3. Start the car, and wait for it to complete the internal tests. The car will drop into base timing mode when you see the engine almost stall, then pick itself back up. Its very noticable, so not something you will miss. You now have 2 mins to check timing.
4. Aim the gun at the timing marks on the passenger side of the timing cover and trigger the gun. You will see a mark on the balancer. This should be in line with the mark on the timing case. If it is 100% inline (or jumps either size a little bit) the timing is correct.
5. If not, stick a 13mm socket with 2 long extensions down through the manifold and loosen the distributor clamp bolt.
6. Reach in and turn the distributor by hand until the marks on the balancer and timing case line up. When they do, tighten down the bolt on the dizzy clamp and thats it.

Recheck it, even if it means running diag mode again, to make sure that its still 100%
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:50 pm 
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arm79 wrote:

1. Hook the timing light up to the terminals - +ve, -ve and number 1 ignition lead and remove the intake snorkle.
2. Put the car into diagnostics mode by shorting out the necessary terminals.
3. Start the car, and wait for it to complete the internal tests. The car will drop into base timing mode when you see the engine almost stall, then pick itself back up. Its very noticable, so not something you will miss. You now have 2 mins to check timing.
4. Aim the gun at the timing marks on the passenger side of the timing cover and trigger the gun. You will see a mark on the balancer. This should be in line with the mark on the timing case. If it is 100% inline (or jumps either size a little bit) the timing is correct.
5. If not, stick a 13mm socket with 2 long extensions down through the manifold and loosen the distributor clamp bolt.
6. Reach in and turn the distributor by hand until the marks on the balancer and timing case line up. When they do, tighten down the bolt on the dizzy clamp and thats it.

Recheck it, even if it means running diag mode again, to make sure that its still 100%


Excellent , I really appreciate your help.
Just one thing if you could add please..
"Shorting out the necessary terminals"
How & where are they? (assume i know nothing!:))


Now.. on a different note.
I had a backyarder do this a while ago.

When i saw the timing gun strobing.. the indicator on the timing case (rather large one \|/ ) was kinda of toward the passenger side..
The marks on the blancer were way over to the drivers side. = advanced?
The mechanic (backyarder) said , it shoudnt be so advanced approx 18 deg. so he adjusted the dissy so the timing mark was 'just' advanced - he said 4deg.
When i drove it it was sluggish as hell and i took it back he returned it towards the drivers side, he said about 10deg. Then it was fine.

NOW.. this is where it gets confusing.
FORD Service said - after , that the timing was too advanced and they retarded it to where it should be.
There seemed to be no change after Ford touched it.. other than slightly better idle.

any thoughts on my adventure between the bacvkyarder andf Ford Service?[/b]

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Have a look in the docos about pulling the error codes from an EF/EL. There are better pictures and instructions in there that I could ever detail to you in this thread.

The mark you saw on the case is the one you need to align the balancer to.

You are correct. If the balancer mark is on the drivers side its advanced. It will sit around 15/16 deg advanced at normal idle. If the line is on the passenger side, its retarded.

Advancing the timing will generally not cause problems with the idle (unless the advance is massive) but you will loose power and have problems with pinging. Retarding the timing will cause idle problems (to the point that it wont idle) but car will still drive but generally have stuff all power.

Essentially what your backyarder did is move the base timing mark to 10ish deg retarded. So when you are accelerating and the timing should be 25deg advance, it was actually 15 deg, which is not enough to produce the proper power at that rev range.

When he put it back to 10 deg, then he has moved it to a point where its better, but still s**t.

As for Ford, I have no trust in their mechanics. There are a few good ones out there, but the vast majority are morons. But I cant comment on what they did, as they are generally vague when they give a description of what they do.

Hence why I say, do it yourself, then you know its done correctly. You're not taking someones 3rd person word that its done properly.

But either way, it still continues to amaze me the number of people on here and mechanics in general (including Ford) do not know how to do they timing on an EL Falcon.
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:20 pm 
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The diagnostic pins are under the fuse compartment, underneath the steering wheel to the right, remove the fuse dash cover. It's a rectangular white strip with about 12 pins and two rows etc. Just short the top and bottom pins together that are to the far left of the strip. So no1 pin in the top row shorted to no1 pin in the bottom row.

Now start the car with short across them, the engine will rev upto about 1500rpm then slowly come back to idle. Wait for about 1-2mins and then you will hear the engine dip in revs to almost stall. This is when you have 2mins to set the timing. Just move the dizzy until the yellow mark on the crankshaft wheel is aligned with the mark on the timing cover that protrudes out a bit.

now turn the engine off and remove the short across the pins.


cheers..

 

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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:44 pm 
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arm79 wrote:

But either way, it still continues to amaze me the number of people on here and mechanics in general (including Ford) do not know how to do they timing on an EL Falcon.


Thanks again arm!

Question.. doesnt the Concorde have the XR6 ECU?
and would that make some kind of difference.. I dont know where i read that.

There are different plugs for the Nl Fairlane and the XR6 engine..
I have put the XR6 NGK plugs in.

I also wondered.. when i took it to Ford I had Ultra Premium Unleaded in the tank. Not normal PULP but the next one up.
Would that have also made the timing appear advanced?

EL__Fairmont wrote:
Just move the dizzy until the yellow mark on the crankshaft wheel is aligned with the mark on the timing cover that protrudes out a bit.

now turn the engine off and remove the short across the pins.


cheers..


Ok.. so match up the strobing mark on the flywheel, exactly with the timing guide on the crank case.

Simple as that?

Anyone here in Sydney - Penrith area wanna gimme a hand?

 

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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:08 am 
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Arm thanks heaps for the advice, will check it tomorrow and let you know how it went.
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Thanks heaps arm79 for clarifying the ignition timing at 0 deg and EL_Fairmont for adding you have to wait approx 1-2min until the revs drop and then you have 2min to set the timing. For almost 3 years the timing has been approx 7 deg retarded which would explain the lack of power until the revs get up. Just got back from a test drive and WOW. Even though its a stock EL fairmont ghia it goes pretty hard compared to an hour ago! just so much more gutsy now especially on take off. Thanks heaps again guys. Forgot to add that the Haynes manual never states to wait 1-2min till revs drop then pick up again and after that set the timing, only says in test mode the revs will raise then drop and after that you only have 2min to set timing....
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:35 am 
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yeah no worries mate, my EL fairmont was running retarded abit and after fixing the timing it made a big difference, just like you have noticed.

\your EL falcon was just at a FORD service depot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just shows you some ford mechanics forget that the EL timing procedure is abit different to the EA-ED falcons. On the EA-ED falcons once you short the correct pins the engine revs up and you then can adjust the timing within 2 minutes. But on The EL Falcons you have wait until the engine revs up to 1500rpm, then drop back to idle then wait another 2min until the engine nearly stalls then picks up revs back to idle. NOW YOU CAN SET THE BASE IGNITION TIMING.


Cheers... Glad to Help.......

 

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Intake: FRAM AIRHOG , EL GT snorkel
XR6 300kpa fuel reg Stg 2 Auto Shift Kit.6DJA ECU
PM in Qld looking too buy Toyota 4*4 SR5 Dualcab Hilux 91-97 with 2.8l diesel engine/5spd manual

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