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Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:02 am 
Getting Side Ways
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ashbrisau wrote:
Hi everyone :D New to website and ford land. Been a old school v8 commodore fan mostly, however dad has given me his AU and i'm sentimental. But anyhow back on subject...

The big difrence i see between the mainstream mentality of the ford six vs other stables is in the RPM/diff ratio department.

The way to be fuel efficient is to make power at low RPM burning as litle fuel as possible close to detonation, which is retarded on the mapping of the engine management.

Generally speaking fast isnt economical, so consider the following:

Programable engine management with high flow injectors, a Bosch Motorsport fuel pump, BP Ultimate or Shell racing pump fuel will need to be used. (higher engine speeds and other factors will place too high a demand on stock stuff, and higher octane will be needed otherwise detonation will occur).

Camshaft choice. You guys know better than me about the common choice cams, but the grinds that make power 4000-7000 RPM are the ones you want.
Yes double valves springs etc is the go but just as important are the fasterners holding your engine together! ARP and half a dozen other companies do cromolly studs to hold your head on and caps down. And then Consider better con rods. Most ppl i know who build motors use H beem rods instead of I beem. I believe ACL DO awsome high silicon lighter than stock pistons with huge ring lands. The bigger ring lands give more support to the rings. And they offer a 30cc dish to lower compression too (more on that latter).
The AU crank is apparently the way to go. Ballancing is not as important in the i6 as is the case in a V configuration, but if you want to reduce engine harmonics and cause vibration and oil leeks get the assemble ballanced.

Head porting is ussually the way to go to make the heads flow. And making the ports match between manifolds and the head. With a non restrictive throttle body.

Doing these will allow the motor to rev and make power upto 68--RPMish and hold together if treated well. Atleast i am hoping it will becasue this is my plan :)
But please consider not going the asperated method of producing power. Bang for buck, lower your compression ration and turbo charge the engine!

A thick decrompression head gasket can also lower compression ratio.

WIth a lower than standard compression ratio and using Forged pistons with an "Electronic" speed controler.
A custom tuned length exhaust header with a T4 flange. And a GT balll bearing medium font case flow compressor. Plumb the gas with 3" stainless pipe (better thermasl properties) into a decent front mount intercooler (fully sick!) and then plumb that into a sheet metal fabricated plenum.

Feel free to run 14psi low 28psi high boost.

Now this is where you start braking diffs anfd gear box's people!



I think you should stick with commodores mate, as most of that dribble is wrong in the case of that engine at hand
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:34 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Fully sick.

In regards to the original question, don't f**k around with going smaller displacement. For the money buy a different engine or if you get the falcon engine balanced properly the bottom end should be able to hit 7000 now worries.

 

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Cramping in the hand from having it on your Wang for an excessive period of time is a definate con.
Seriously do people google "f**k up modifications for Fords owned by Jews" and get linked straight to this site nowadays?

AU,factory fitted tickford kit/IRS, t5,Sports ryder/KYB: gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:42 pm 
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skidder wrote:
Fully sick.

In regards to the original question, don't f**k around with going smaller displacement. For the money buy a different engine or if you get the falcon engine balanced properly the bottom end should be able to hit 7000 now worries.


When the time comes, my brothers Ute will be getting a built bottom end to take as much as we can throw at it. from what I understand, on a well balanced motor, 7500rpm is no problem....

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:46 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Did I mention anything about side load in any of my previous dribbles? At 7000rpm I wonder how long your rings will last.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:52 pm 
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xcabbi wrote:
Did I mention anything about side load in any of my previous dribbles? At 7000rpm I wonder how long your rings will last.


I wouldn't expect to get much more than one season.

No one in their right mind would build a ford i6 as a daily which was required to rev this high, would be gay as to drive except for on the track.

 

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EVL098 wrote:
Cramping in the hand from having it on your Wang for an excessive period of time is a definate con.
Seriously do people google "f**k up modifications for Fords owned by Jews" and get linked straight to this site nowadays?

AU,factory fitted tickford kit/IRS, t5,Sports ryder/KYB: gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:18 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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"I think you should stick with commodores mate, as most of that dribble is wrong in the case of that engine at hand"

What parts a wrong? I did actually consider putting my 308 in the AU. But i want a 6 cylinder in this car.

If we cant get the 4ltr reving to 7000RPM i'm chucking the thing out. My cast iron v8 which is basicly an engine designed 100 years ago that uses push rods to operate the valves can rev to 7000RPM all day long reliably and short stints upto 8000RPM and this motor cant and its built in the 21st century. :)

I just got dad some maccas and on the way back the AU did over 80kmh in first gear, i have an auto. That will make the diff ratio about 3.08/1 no?
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:22 pm 
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lololol holden r so s**t, i luv ford so mutch i put my penis in d zorst pipe butt it burnd a bit lololol"

Everyone to their own.. It was a 1984 vk berlina, metalic bronze. I never lost a race to a ford newer than 1974ish :) Used to piss ford owners as well as European japanese etc. But i am with ford now. I have a giant almost 2 tonne thing with pretty suave interior. Dad gave it to me so it means a but to me. Its just way too damn slow.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:22 pm 
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i think its because of the long stroke of the 4.0,
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:27 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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"No one in their right mind would build a ford i6 as a daily which was required to rev this high, would be gay as to drive except for on the track"

I don't think ppl who make their road cars are often in the right frame of mind :P
For instance me and my firends and ppl who know people. 800hp 9 second cars is a good thing to have on the road friday night.

If i had only one car it wouldn't be so wild. Which is why i am using a 6 cylinder. You can't get economy with a V8. I get 4kms per ltr of BP ultimate if i idle under 1500RPM in the 5 litre.

5000 Rpm is pretty lame in any car manufaturers language.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:29 pm 
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TROYMAN wrote:
i think its because of the long stroke of the 4.0,


I have heard that. But if you use better rods and bearings one would beable to get around this?
All stock internals would need to be changed in other motors to make it tuff enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:33 pm 
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ashbrisau wrote:
TROYMAN wrote:
i think its because of the long stroke of the 4.0,


I have heard that. But if you use better rods and bearings one would beable to get around this?
All stock internals would need to be changed in other motors to make it tuff enough.


yea true, but having a high rpm isnt everything..
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:43 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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TROYMAN wrote:
ashbrisau wrote:
TROYMAN wrote:
i think its because of the long stroke of the 4.0,


I have heard that. But if you use better rods and bearings one would beable to get around this?
All stock internals would need to be changed in other motors to make it tuff enough.


yea true, but having a high rpm isnt everything..


Not in a road car. I would like at least 6500RPM with a diff ratio around 3.55/1.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:25 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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TROYMAN wrote:
ashbrisau wrote:
TROYMAN wrote:
i think its because of the long stroke of the 4.0,


I have heard that. But if you use better rods and bearings one would beable to get around this?
All stock internals would need to be changed in other motors to make it tuff enough.


yea true, but having a high rpm isnt everything..


Horses for courses. The OP originally wanted this engine as a speedway engine, and those things are natural high rpm screamers.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:40 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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ashbrisau wrote:
What parts a wrong? I did actually consider putting my 308 in the AU. But i want a 6 cylinder in this car.

If we cant get the 4ltr reving to 7000RPM i'm chucking the thing out. My cast iron v8 which is basicly an engine designed 100 years ago that uses push rods to operate the valves can rev to 7000RPM all day long reliably and short stints upto 8000RPM and this motor cant and its built in the 21st century. :)

I just got dad some maccas and on the way back the AU did over 80kmh in first gear, i have an auto. That will make the diff ratio about 3.08/1 no?


The valve train would easily deal with revs, it's the long stroke with comparatively short rods thats the problem, along with the heads simply not flowing enough air to make usable power at that RPM, even when ported.

and sheet metal manifolds...... you need to stop reading street commodores.

I beam vs. H beam has been done to death. If you want to built a high reving N/A engine you dont want the extra weight of a H beam and at those revs a cast piston will not live.

As far as ARP doing head and main studs for this engine... you have to be joking. NO ONE makes them for this engine.

ACL don't do a 30cc dish for this engine as that would give you compression somewhere in the 7:1 range,

About the only thing you got right was the turboing this engine is a good idea.

And don't forget that the SOHC version of the engine was designed in the mid 80s and first put into production in 1988 it has been out of production for 7 years and is a 22 year old design.
It was never a clean sheet design and its roots go back to the 60s, It's that closely related to the old push rod crossflow that it's common to fit the cranks and rods from the SOHC engine into the crossflow.

It wasn't the best idea to come on here and start lecturing every one on how to make power with an engine we have all been dealing with years yet you obviously know nothing about.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:54 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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tickford_6 wrote:
ashbrisau wrote:
What parts a wrong? I did actually consider putting my 308 in the AU. But i want a 6 cylinder in this car.

If we cant get the 4ltr reving to 7000RPM i'm chucking the thing out. My cast iron v8 which is basicly an engine designed 100 years ago that uses push rods to operate the valves can rev to 7000RPM all day long reliably and short stints upto 8000RPM and this motor cant and its built in the 21st century. :)

I just got dad some maccas and on the way back the AU did over 80kmh in first gear, i have an auto. That will make the diff ratio about 3.08/1 no?


The valve train would easily deal with revs, it's the long stroke with comparatively short rods thats the problem, along with the heads simply not flowing enough air to make usable power at that RPM, even when ported.

and sheet metal manifolds...... you need to stop reading street commodores.

I beam vs. H beam has been done to death. If you want to built a high reving N/A engine you dont want the extra weight of a H beam and at those revs a cast piston will not live.

As far as ARP doing head and main studs for this engine... you have to be joking. NO ONE makes them for this engine.

ACL don't do a 30cc dish for this engine as that would give you compression somewhere in the 7:1 range,

About the only thing you got right was the turboing this engine is a good idea.

It wasn't the best idea to come on here and start lecturing every one on how to make power with an engine we have all been dealing with years yet you obviously know nothing about.



This is the reason i don't join forums...

Ok I am trying to help someone intrested in knowing how engines operate. I am generalising/ I will be wrong about the minor details like what size cc dish ACL do in their pistons. They sdo an 11cc dish, My mistake. The reason i guess? I don't want to spend ages digging around for the specifics cuz i don't have time to debabte on forums.

"The valve train would easily deal with revs, it's the long stroke with comparatively short rods thats the problem, along with the heads simply not flowing enough air to make usable power at that RPM, even when ported.

"
Thats why yu use better rods, ballancing bearings etc. And forced induction. You need boost to go mate!

"and sheet metal manifolds...... you need to stop reading street commodores" sounds yo me that your trying to tweak my nerves? What do you call a custom plennum?

"I beam vs. H beam has been done to death. If you want to built a high reving N/A engine you dont want the extra weight of a H beam and at those revs a cast piston will not live."

No s***? maybe thats why you spend the cash and get the good s**t?

"As far as ARP doing head and main studs for this engine... you have to be joking. NO ONE makes them for this engine"
ou need to machine bosses in most cases to accept the studs etc. But i remember Jim Mock listing some fasteners that are for this engine. I cnbf to find it now tho. I will let you know when i come acros it again.
This is the important area on keeping motors together. You lot best find solutions :P

Ford standard compression ratios are too high for high boost and advanced ignition timing,
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