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Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:25 pm 
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In the meantime -- I'm still really interested to hear what other people have heard of (or done)...

Sure, you can bolt on a Supercharger or Turbo... But hey - How about bolting a S/C or Turbo onto something that is capable of doing 200RWKW at 6500 all by itself!!!!

Those stock car guys are doing real well with the base E series engine... Not many have gone on to BA yet, and they are producing some pretty solid engines. Although maybe having a rebuild after four or five races is okay for a track car sitting on 7500 rpm from go to woe it ain't that much use for a daily driver...

Maybe a street legal weapon that you could take down the quarter would be the way to look at this theory? Look at all the big dollars spent on the V8's and getting all the parts into them in order to produce power and reliability. $20,000 for a real nice 600-700hp methanol beast sound about right? Anyone got a theory on what $10,000 would do to an AU inline six?
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:29 pm 
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I know alot of people think hes a knob, but maybe its a good idea to give Jim Mock a call, he has put alot of work into these engines and im sure he would know what the limits are. He does have a EB doing 13.1 quarter which is pretty dam quick.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:43 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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13.1 in full drag spec with no interior, and massive slicks, where one of our (perth??) members did 13.7 in his ea with half the work of mocks car.

I think mocks car runs nitro as well.

Dont get me wrong Im not trying to hate on JMM, I think you'd be better off with a proper race engine builder. AFAIK JMM is POA for anything over dev5's. So going to him or an engine builder is going to be costly.

The lack of a market hinders development of insane NA 6's.

I think the starting point is to ring an engine building mob and see what they would charge for a full race prep of your bottom end. Easy to work from there for head/cam/intake/exhaust.

then you would need to gear it for the powerband.

I know having 3.89s and a t5 with stock cam as I have atm isnt a good combo. no point revving it past 4700 - as if you go to 5700 the change is above the peak torque (somewhere around the 3k mark) and even above peak power (which occurs roughly around 4500rpm).

however if I can ever get around to putting the 1671 in, it should be party time.

a 977b AU equivelant would be better again.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Yeah good point i didn't realize he had slicks and no interior. Maybe get an EL taxi for $500 put a J3 chip in it and take the rev limiter off and go to town with it lol.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:57 pm 
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fiend wrote:
In answer to who would spend $10,000 on a 4.0lt when there's other things available... The stock car guys who I originally mentioned love these motors... Some classes limit you to certain things --- Displacement being one of them...


by that i meant whos gunna spend 10g on a street modded NA I6 when there is better bang for your buck?

stockcar stuff is of little use to us because they run restrictors and carbs.....we cantcopy what theyre doing nor would we want to

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:03 pm 
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GeZza200 wrote:
I know alot of people think hes a knob, but maybe its a good idea to give Jim Mock a call, he has put alot of work into these engines and im sure he would know what the limits are. He does have a EB doing 13.1 quarter which is pretty dam quick.


hed be pretty low on my list....his cams dont seem that good nor his heaaders, and why bother when theres paccies out there...

im at a toss up cam wise between cms and wade...with wade in front due to some members here having known good results with them

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:57 am 
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I would spend $10,000 in an instant on getting my NA I6 4lt parts to turn it into a weapon. No s**t. I would seriously.

If I had $10,000 for a car, I wouldn't buy a car - I'd buy pistons and rods and pins and then I'd be pulling the crank out and machining it and putting it back in with new big bearings, and the other parts.

All that would probably be around $2000 do it yourself, so that still leaves me $1000 to buy a good porting tool and still have $7000 to spend. I'd probably go for some after market rockers or get some fabricated to suit and trade in my Wade 1673 for something that lifts about the same, but with the overall durations changed to suit higher rpm.

A set of Pacey 4480's ceramic coated and a fully programmable with on the fly computer setup up would just about clean out the rest of the ten G.

That's what I would do with $10,000 if I had $10,000 to spend on an automobile.

Why would I do it?

Because I like the engines. I think they're bloody great. Inline Sixes (and the Barra included) should not be left to die just as there is a tried and true formula to doing up your eight cylinder things.

I have email JMM with regard to his "stroker" for the Inline Six, but have received no response what so ever. And my email was sent on behalf of a reasonably serious stock car enthusiast who wanted to put one up against the N/A V8's in the Saloon class - He's just bought an old Mustang saloon rolling body and is working on getting it powered. He'll miss this season, but will be back for the next I would suggest.

If he got this Mustang going with a 4.0lt (or 4.8 stroked) inline six I would talk everyone I knew into going along and supporting him wherever he went.

Yeah, your 8's are cool... And there's heaps of "go fast" bits for them... They're still expensive in reality - bellhousings and heaps of parts are four times more expensive for the 8's - and once you get the basis of a nice strong six there are a million second hand motors you could buy and rebuild happily.


Long and the short of it ---

These inline sixes are great, and they are going to be history soon. Which is a real shame. My one already beats standard EL Xr8's hands down, and it isn't that far off "stock" when you compare it to what could be done.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:58 am 
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I think Im in the same boat as fiend. But for me, its more about doing what not many have done before, and trying to figure things out and develope the engine further if possible, than has conventionally been done.

I doubt you will hear back from Brendan, they seem to want the drive in drive out max profit margin $$$.

If I had money to burn I would probably do the same, and try and get a smacked out na6 running, just for the heck of it. Sadly the reality, most people that buy a ford with an NA i6 are the exact demographic that have very little funds.

I wouldnt want to stretch it to 4.8, the 4.0 is already a stroked 3.3. so the only room for capacity increase is in the bore. The stroke cant really be stratched much further than it already is.

Id be happy with a 4.3 litre capacity, with an increase in the bore diameter from 92.25 to a 96mm bore.

this makes it closer to square (96 x 99.31) and rev a little more hapily. widen the bore and throw the biggest intake valves you can fit, you might loose a bit of bottom end low throttle flow, but the larger bore diameter will be sucking a lot more air.

inch wise thise combo is 3.77952 bore X 3.90984 stroke. stock stroke with a widened bore.

should be mental with a cam that makes power from 4 to 6 and a half, a purpose race built bottom end, and a well shaped head with 10.5:1 comp ratio.

my freind knew an engine shop in brisbane that went bust, were making 250kw at the fly na6's out of 2nd hand au motors. they were a complete rebuild. The unsold parts went in skips, and 3 weeks later I bought an AU. Dont think I wasnt crying when he told me.

Anything is possible with the right $$$. Pending my forthcoming lottery win :)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:32 pm 
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Grimketel wrote:
I think Im in the same boat as fiend. But for me, its more about doing what not many have done before, and trying to figure things out and develope the engine further if possible, than has conventionally been done.
Well yeah. Anyone who knows me knows I like to try and think for myself, do my own research, and ultimately make my own product (or mistake!)!!

Yeahp - Doing the wider bore makes a lot of sense to me. You're spot on with that way of looking at it. Just how much metal would be left after boring out like that? Probably more than enough to survive a few detonations
:D

More I look at it, the more I am thinking I am silly for going the way of the EF / EL Tickford instead of getting the AU power source. Never mind, AU bottom ends can be bought for $250 - and that is going to be the basis of the I6 rocket machine that is living and breathing in my imagination...

How many times has something like "an engine shop just went out of business" type situations happened over the years? It's enough to drive a decent man to drink.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:50 pm 
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I do drink, its a vice.

If the bottom ends are cheap enough, buy 2, and do the top end on one, with a big cam and valvetrain rathed to 6500. have the head done, the lot. run aftermarket ignition. slap it on the stock bottom end and have the rev limiter raised with a custom flash tune to 6500 rpm.

Flog the s**t out of it. see if anything bends.

If it doesnt, budget rocket.

If it does have the second bottom end dipped bored honed and linished, with high rpm bearings, and accesories. have underdrive pullies machined to fit. whack in a bigger radiator while your at it, more power = more bang = more heat.

f**k now im getting ideas, that far outreach my budget. and my mechanical talent. Sounds familiar.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Grimketel wrote:
f**k now im getting ideas, that far outreach my budget. and my mechanical talent. Sounds familiar.
:D
Nope, have not heard anything like that before. Nope. Not at all.

What you say is making sense mind. An AU motor for $350 could be a wise investment. Lighter moving parts and all that... I reckon boring it out a few MM would be wise too.

And there you have it, back into that outreaching budget and mechanical talent category.... Sigh.
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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Well I will put my hand up for one of those "CLOWNS" who is spending $10000 on a N/A street car. Why. Why turbo it. For $10000 you will get no where near the quality in the engine that you get in the N/A engine. The turbo is already being done to death. Nothing wrong with that, if you want to follow the rest of the sheep.

There was a comment earlier in the thread, something like "what is better a car the has a big cam and revs to 7000 or one with a mild cam that rvs to 6000." I took that as meaning what really is the better way to get the power.

So when you consider that if i can make a N/A motor, that is bullet proof, that makes the power of the average persons $5000+ turbo build, What is better.

Alot of people get blinded by horspower figures and loose sight of the goals of modifying a car. In My eyes it is better to bild a $10000 engine that will live longer than myself, than to build a $5000 slap together job that lasts 2 years max then you are back to where you started.

I did look into doing a turbo setup and to build to the quality i wanted was noseing on the $20000 mark. That is using all the right parts no cheap junk that will let you down. A turbo and exhaust housing alone is $3000!

I still like to win and I still like my power. I just like to do it the old fashined way. I respect a 10sec N/A car alot more than a 10sec forced induction car.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:30 pm 
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xr6eat 50 wrote:
Well I will put my hand up for one of those "CLOWNS" who is spending $10000 on a N/A street car. Why. Why turbo it. For $10000 you will get no where near the quality in the engine that you get in the N/A engine. The turbo is already being done to death. Nothing wrong with that, if you want to follow the rest of the sheep.

There was a comment earlier in the thread, something like "what is better a car the has a big cam and revs to 7000 or one with a mild cam that rvs to 6000." I took that as meaning what really is the better way to get the power.

I still like to win and I still like my power. I just like to do it the old fashined way. I respect a 10sec N/A car alot more than a 10sec forced induction car.


I respect your comments especially as you obviously are more than just talk....its backed by what seems a fairly genuine 185rwkw figure already...

can i ask what cam your running? auto or manual? have you done much porting work?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Also as for the info on what people do with them N/A motors, what works and how it is done. Yeah it is hard to come by but it is out there some of the stuff we have found out is unreal. Alot of it I am sure the most I6 educated people on here wouldn't know. There are some real tricks with the head selection. Working on the fact the you are going to revalve the head to the correct sizing head selections is not about the year model it is alot more technical than that. The best head for them is an e series head and it comes out of a cirten mold in the factory giving it a destinct charictortistic in the ports that no other head mold has. It can be on a tickford head or a GLI head. Makes you think right.

Alot of the info has its roots in speedway. I totally agree with the comment about not doing what the speedway guys do. Some of the things they do to there motors are rough as you can get. That is mainly due to it being a budget form of motor sport though.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Question Time about REV RANGE's. 7500RPM and 160 RWKW?
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:35 pm 
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[/quote]I respect your comments especially as you obviously are more than just talk....its backed by what seems a fairly genuine 185rwkw figure already...

can i ask what cam your running? auto or manual? have you done much porting work?[/quote]


Ignore that 185rwkw that was with a 75 shot of the go fast bottle. :) It made 158rwkw without it. I used that motor as a bit of a test for the current engine. I might out nos on this one will see.

As for cam selection I use Tighe cams, Dean and Ivan realy know there stuff because they make alot of speedway cams up here. Alot of people don't want to use them because they don't run on a stock ecu. That was never a concern for me.

 

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