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Sub Amp Not Enough Power? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:06 pm 
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or made by the same company as rampage????

cheers bear

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:24 pm 
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87SIlude wrote:
It is very much so.
Yea a system that small shouldn't require a cap.
Seeing 4gauge is good for up to say 3000wrms.


huh???

Cable is not rated in music power... Its not even rated in electrical power... Its rated in amps... Whoever told you this has no idea what they are talking about... It amazes me how so many people get carried away in car amps and don't understand what electricity really is... I'm an apprentice electrician and there is over 12 months of tech in understanding dc electricity... Even more for AC :x What I learn for household wiring directly applies to everything to do with car wiring...

Anyway... enough of my rant...

Jaycar 4 gauge cable

http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID ... rm=KEYWORD

Rated to carry 110amps...

Your cable size is NOT worked out by your musical power... Its worked out on your electrical current required... Look at the fuses in each amp... Add to two current ratings together... This is how much power must be able to be supplied to each amp (a fuse will NOT blow at its rated current, it take like 1.5times or something of that nature to pop them, might even be twice, can't remember now)... If you have say 80 amps total... then an 8 gauge will not cut it being rated at 56 from memory off the jaycar website... you will need a 4 gauge, and a distro block where (if your going all out) fusing both 8 gauges running out to the amps...

Also, in regards to your capacitor hating, this is my explanation from another thread as to how they work and why they are good to stop your lights from diming:

timmytimtim wrote:
mystro wrote:
whoever thinks a capacitor will fix charging issues is a ningnong and a numpty.


Who told you this? That is bull... The idea of a capacitor is its a solid state battery... It has two functions: 1) It has the ability to be discharged in an extremely short period of time and provide massive power output (lots of joules over a small period is a s**t load of watts of discharge)...

The reason for this is when you hit a massive low when you have the stereo cranked and your 1000W mono block goes s**t I need 3x my rated power for .25 of a second to do this... The battery cannot discharge at this rate and the amp therefore cannot reproduce this sound and then you get a massive dip in power in your car for a fraction of a second... This is no good for electrics and reduces sound quality... A cap can discharge at this rate, hence you get the sound and the dip in power is minimised...

2) is the same reason when you crack open a (say 10amp) dc power supply (240V in 13.8V out) you will see 1 or 2 or even more massive caps in there... When used on DC caps provide superb filtering and help keep a good dc signal... Caps do not filter in an ac circuit and only work as a load (commonly for power factor correction)...

Cheers...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:10 pm 
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Did I say 4 gauge is rated to 3000rwms?
Noooooooooooooo.
And I think its 2000wrms.neway.
I know that if you have done everything PROPPERLY you can run a 140db plus system easliy without a cap and without dimming.
Its somewhat like engines.
Build it right and you have everything running smick with all the parts working together, all the power you need and room for more.
Do it the cheap, quick or easy way and you have some of the power, but its nothing like the propper job. And you need nos to keep up.
Nos being the cap.
If you get what I mean.

I understand what a cap does. but its not needed for this system or half the systems they are put in.
if your using one to fix the dimming you havnt built your system propperly and are probably dammaging other components.
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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:32 pm 
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I am just saying don't use music power to calc the size of power cables... They are rated on current... You mentioned yourself that there are cheap amps... A cheap amp has a low efficiency and hence require more current for the same music power... So even 2000WRMS is not the right way to measure it...

If you had a solid state battery then yeah I would agree, you would never ever need a cap... As long as most people run lead acid batteries (unsure one how gel cells work)... Then the battery will never be able to supply short sudden bursts...

Really even the alternator can't fix this, as the regulator takes time to change the output current and voltage, these sudden pulses are that quick only a cap can supply this sort of power required...

Like you said though, not needed... However if you've got dimming it'd be the first thing I'd do,not run two 8 gauge cables... I am fairly sure that you'll get more voltage drop with 8 gauge cables due to higher resistance because a 4 gauge has more area than two 8 gauges (I think I worked this out once before and got this)...

87SIlude wrote:
if your using one to fix the dimming you havnt built your system propperly and are probably dammaging other components.


this is wrong... as I tried to explain a cap is better than a lead acid battery as discharging because it is solid state... Its like running dual batteries... Only the cap can discharge faster and the car battery can store charge longer...

a big system NEEDS a cap... you show me a massive car stereo that doesn't suffer massive voltage drop without a cap... A cap is not a bandaid... It is something I recommend (when you do TAFE and do experiments with them and see what they are using inand how they are used you'll believe me...

An example... at work we have the best in market high voltage circuit breakers... Nulecs... Powered from 24volts dc (2 small 12volt lead acid batteries) they have a 24volt closing coil... they are worth in excess of $40K each... they have... wait for it... capacitors in them... because the batteries cannot discharge fast enough to provide a enough power to close the circuit breaker against the massive springs in them... This is not a band aid...

A big system requires the right gear... I can't work out why you hate caps so... You have had a bad experience with them? Pull any power supply apart and show me there isn't an electrolytic capacitor in them for storage and filtering...

If you still can't see why big sudden power draw requires cap then you need to research them, because contrary to what you say, you clearly don't understand what they do... They are required and are NOT a band aid... Its simple DC electricity... Cheap insurance for the other sensitive electronics I'd say...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:42 pm 
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87SIlude wrote:
It is very much so.
Yea a system that small shouldn't require a cap.
Seeing 4gauge is good for up to say 3000wrms.


87SIlude wrote:
Did I say 4 gauge is rated to 3000rwms?
Noooooooooooooo.
And I think its 2000wrms.neway.
I know that if you have done everything PROPPERLY you can run a 140db plus system easliy without a cap and without dimming.
Its somewhat like engines.
Build it right and you have everything running smick with all the parts working together, all the power you need and room for more.
Do it the cheap, quick or easy way and you have some of the power, but its nothing like the propper job. And you need nos to keep up.
Nos being the cap.
If you get what I mean.

I understand what a cap does. but its not needed for this system or half the systems they are put in.
if your using one to fix the dimming you havnt built your system propperly and are probably dammaging other components..


yes you did here LOL

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:52 pm 
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double post.... see below...

 

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Last edited by TimmyA on Mon May 10, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:54 pm 
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BEAR80 wrote:
hey

for future reference a capacitor would have helped in your situation as it would have helped with the power draw at high bass

cheers bear


Even bear understands what I'm ranting about... We may had this convo previously bear? or it was someone else I was discussing it with recently...

PS 94EDFutura Sorry for hijacking your thread... But from the electrical background I have, I have reason to disagree with what 87SIlude is trying to tell you...

Steady ED wrote:
4g csa is greater then two runs of 8g, not to mention it's alot easier to have one lug and one fuse at the battery.

i have no idea what you mean by "less power drawn threw".


phongus wrote:
run 4g from battery to boot (or where ever your amps are) with an inline fuse. Then get a splitter and split the 4 gauge into 2 x 8 gauges. If you can afford it, get a splitter with built in fuses, that way each amp has it's own fuse to blow if something was to go wrong. Then run an 8 gauge earth from each amp onto the chassis...it is best to keep the earth as short as possible. My earth is the parcel shelf. Sand back the paint, have washer lugs on the end of the earth and hold them into place via nut and bolt. Not too sure as to why the earth should be short, but some people recommend it.

I've done the above setup on my 2 amps and they don't seem to cause any issues in regards to lights dimming or power loss.


^^^ As many others seem to as well...

Make the most informed decision from what you have here I say...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:55 pm 
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It says its good for up to 3000wrms. I didn't say its rated at 3000wrms.

I get how it sounds the same. But I ment it the otherway. You know?
Like you can run a 3000wrms system off 110amp 4gauge.
Im a bit off tonight.
Haha.
Note. Im not 100% sure the figure is 3000wrms. But its pretty close.

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:00 pm 
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timmytimtim wrote:
BEAR80 wrote:
hey

for future reference a capacitor would have helped in your situation as it would have helped with the power draw at high bass

cheers bear


Even bear understands what I'm ranting about... We may had this convo previously bear? or it was someone else I was discussing it with recently...

PS 94EDFutura Sorry for hijacking your thread... But from the electrical background I have, I have reason to disagree with what 87SIlude is trying to tell you...

Steady ED wrote:
4g csa is greater then two runs of 8g, not to mention it's alot easier to have one lug and one fuse at the battery.

i have no idea what you mean by "less power drawn threw".


phongus wrote:
run 4g from battery to boot (or where ever your amps are) with an inline fuse. Then get a splitter and split the 4 gauge into 2 x 8 gauges. If you can afford it, get a splitter with built in fuses, that way each amp has it's own fuse to blow if something was to go wrong. Then run an 8 gauge earth from each amp onto the chassis...it is best to keep the earth as short as possible. My earth is the parcel shelf. Sand back the paint, have washer lugs on the end of the earth and hold them into place via nut and bolt. Not too sure as to why the earth should be short, but some people recommend it.

I've done the above setup on my 2 amps and they don't seem to cause any issues in regards to lights dimming or power loss.


^^^ As many others seem to as well...

Make the most informed decision from what you have here I say...

Cheers,
Tim

hey tim


the only thing we have discussed lately is au indicators into a ed nothing close but i am doing a install myself in the wagon and i have been doing a bit of research as i will be installing another amp in the wagon just for the sub

cheers bear

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Thats right we had that "backwards" argument? I remember now :D anybody think I had the memory of a 90 yr old :roll: Oh well at least we agree this time...

It was someone different I was discussing power draw and caps with then... My bad, was in this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90782

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:14 pm 
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yeah i remember reading that thread quite a good read

btw i ended up going for just amber ones as i got a pair of amber blinkers and tacho dash for $35 so cant complain.

there is a guy on youtube that has a big a*** chev or ford truck cant quite remember, his system is HUGE and doesnt run a cap mind you he has 5 200amp alternators running off the front of the V8 and has 7 forklift 2 volt batteries conected in series making up 14 volts but has a huge capacity

cheers bear

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:21 pm 
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Really? There are people running that big of a system to require 5 alternators?

I still reckon that a cap responds to sudden power requirements quicker than a regulator in an alternator can provide higher output...

Would be interesting to hook an oscilloscope up to his 14volt system and see just how smooth the waveform is when its running flat out... I'd nearly bet there'd have to be a roughness to it... Those with volt gauge in there dash, you can see how slow the alternator is to react to the sudden power draw when you turn on your headlights Big dip than rise on the gauge... Thats only 55watts a side isn't is? 110 all up so like less than 10 amps... Your amp draws much more than this in short bursts...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:27 pm 
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hey

here is a link to a 4 alternator setup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yti-GQa5n0I

my system aint going to be huge its just a nice system full of pioneer gear and i will be putting in a 1 farad stinger cap to help with the system

cheers bear

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Cheers for that... sounds good... Will help smooth the waveform anyway and keep a nice constant voltage on everything...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Sub Amp Not Enough Power?
Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:24 am 
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With the 5 alt and 14 2 volt batteries you'd expect it to be "rough" but with the time and money he'd spent he would have 0gauge connecting all the batteries and everything. (Well I would)
The less resistance through the bigger wire really "smoothes" out the power draw.
I think that's why the headlights draw so much power. Really small gauge wire with high resistance and a decent power draw.

It works like that dosnt it?
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