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| rainoffire |
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Hey guys, just been talking to Joe at CMS about and upgrade path for my EL XR6. Its currently on gas, and i want to leave it that way even with the upgrades, as it is a daily driver. It has an IMPCO gas system on it, with the right angle mixer, parts numbers are
Converter LB-2 100108 Mixer FB200M-2-2 Joe recommended that i go with the GRA throttle body mixer ending in a 51, which i assume is the S510, otherwise the mixer would restrict high end power with a stage 2/3 cam and stage 3 head. Ive always noticed the top end seems a bit sluggish compared to my old car, so i was thinking of upgrading the throttle body sooner rather than later. I contacted GRA and they said i need new converter aswell, but from what ive just read in this part of the forum the LB-2 converter is the one they use anyway, can anyone confirm 100% this is true. If i understand what ive read correctly, i can just get the S510, replace stock throttle body with that, hook the converter up to it, and retune it? Thanks in advance, Blake |
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| twase |
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rainoffire wrote: Hey guys, just been talking to Joe at CMS about and upgrade path for my EL XR6. Its currently on gas, and i want to leave it that way even with the upgrades, as it is a daily driver. It has an IMPCO gas system on it, with the right angle mixer, parts numbers are GRA's response is that you need the GRA modified B2. My experience is that it does not matter that much provided it can supply the flow required.
Converter LB-2 100108 Mixer FB200M-2-2 Joe recommended that i go with the GRA throttle body mixer ending in a 51, which i assume is the S510, otherwise the mixer would restrict high end power with a stage 2/3 cam and stage 3 head. Ive always noticed the top end seems a bit sluggish compared to my old car, so i was thinking of upgrading the throttle body sooner rather than later. I contacted GRA and they said i need new converter aswell, but from what ive just read in this part of the forum the LB-2 converter is the one they use anyway, can anyone confirm 100% this is true. If i understand what ive read correctly, i can just get the S510, replace stock throttle body with that, hook the converter up to it, and retune it? Thanks in advance, Blake
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| EFFalcon |
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If you're already running a B2 converter, you can get spring kits for them to make them work with GRA throttle bodies, they're about $15.
S510 is a pretty large throttle body for an N/A 6, you may find it difficult to get a good tune on it. most N/A 6's run an S440 I'm running an S400 on my Turbo I6, but forced induction changes the flow rates anyway.
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| rainoffire |
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the spring kit sounds like the way to go to me. Do you get them from GRA or IMPCO? I'm guessing GRA doesn't sell them because they want you to buy a whole new converter?
Joe said with the stage 3+3 you are looking 170-180rwkw, and i needed the biggest TB that GRA made, does it sound too big for this? I would have to live with the bigger TB for while before the head and cam, so that would probably make it harder again without the extra flow from the package. Is the general consensus that its too big? is there anyone else running a CMS setup with a GRA TB? |
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| EFFalcon |
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GRA sell them.
to be honest.... i found GRA + N/A 6 cyl to be pretty average. If cars are pulling 170rwkw on Petrol with the gear your getting, i wouldn't expect 170rwkw from yours.
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| Waggin |
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EFFalcon wrote: GRA sell them. to be honest.... i found GRA + N/A 6 cyl to be pretty average. If cars are pulling 170rwkw on Petrol with the gear your getting, i wouldn't expect 170rwkw from yours. I realise you're talking from experience here - what sort of performance did you get from the GRA? Surely the GRA system is better than putting a 40mm ID ring mixer in the intake. I'm also considering GRA and B2 for my 5L (~190RWKW) to replace the existing OMVL R90 positive feed system.
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| EFFalcon |
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This is how i see it.
GRA IS better then any other Carb/Mixer ring style system, both for tunibility and performance. however its not better then injection, both Petrol/LPG. LPG needs cubes or boost to make decent power. GRA gear is still a restriction , if you look at the inside of the throttle you can see just how much. I never got great power from my car N/A, 112rwkw on LPG and 114RWKW on petrol. The car would have been capable of more power on petrol with a standard throttle body too. that was with the usual, exhaust/extractors/cam/intake mods. and given the ability for a 5L to create power, 190rwkw on LPG is deffinately acheivable, look at the clevo guys  however, the CMS gear is designed for injection, all that extra manifold volume taken up by LPG will drop the power. Also Waggin, 190rwkw will be on the verge of needing a 2nd B2 converter.
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| Waggin |
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Interesting. I have my eyes on a S510 and 2x B2 in the For Sale forum
 I have been looking at some LPG injection systems, and since the LPG rebate hasn't been claimed against my car I may look at upgrading and using the rebate.. we'll see. I suppose it's around this point where you need to decide if you're doing it for a zippy yet economical (and green!) daily driver - or to get every last bit out of the engine for track work. The former is closer where I sit these days 
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| EFFalcon |
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Waggin wrote: Interesting. I have my eyes on a S510 and 2x B2 in the For Sale forum I have been looking at some LPG injection systems, and since the LPG rebate hasn't been claimed against my car I may look at upgrading and using the rebate.. we'll see. I suppose it's around this point where you need to decide if you're doing it for a zippy yet economical (and green!) daily driver - or to get every last bit out of the engine for track work. The former is closer where I sit these days Hahaha... i seem to be leaning the same way as you Unfortunately Air Bag suspension doesn't lend itself to track work too well Injection is nice, but very hard to justify for the price. GRA on
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| Matt_jew |
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Waggin wrote: Interesting. I have my eyes on a S510 and 2x B2 in the For Sale forum I have been looking at some LPG injection systems, and since the LPG rebate hasn't been claimed against my car I may look at upgrading and using the rebate.. we'll see. I suppose it's around this point where you need to decide if you're doing it for a zippy yet economical (and green!) daily driver - or to get every last bit out of the engine for track work. The former is closer where I sit these days Only problem with that theroy is if the car is already on LPG and is listed with the RTA as being on LPG you are not entitled to claim the rebate.
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| Waggin |
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It can be changed if the existing LPG system is removed, blue slipped and RTA is notified.
From that point a new system can be installed, and claimed if a rebate hasn't been claimed against that VIN previously.
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| rainoffire |
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I'm not fussed about the power on gas, for me gas is when i want the car to run cheap, when i want power i switch back to petrol. Did you mean that it will drop the power on gas, or across the board?I currently have the IMPCO right angle system which im pretty sure causes some serious restrictions to the car at high revs already. I had an EA 5 speed with crow cam and extractors, 125 (JMM)kw atw, and i raced the guy i sold it too the other day, and stayed just infront of mine the whole way to 100, so i am loosing power somewhere.
I wanted to go gas injection, but it already registered with the gas on it, so does that mean that i cant get the injection system on it, or is what Waggin is saying true and i can just get it taken of then changed to LPG injection. I have heard of problems with those systems tho? how much of the original system is usable with injection? ie could you get the cost of injection under $2000 with the parts i already have from the initial gas setup? Thanks for all the advice so far guys, ive been tossing this one up since i first got the car, that maybe i should have gone for one without gas and got the injection system on it. |
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| MICKYYYY |
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im also trying to find out if the GRA gear is worth wild to change to as ive used Airod system in my previous EL and now i have a Impco in my EF and they have been both good and reliable but they both look restrictive especially the impco.
All i want to do it get the best economy out of my car and 90% of the time the car is run under 2000rpm and i was told that if i go GRA TB that i will gain more power as well as an extra 40kms per 65litre lpg tank. EFFalcon Did you get good economy when ur car was NA with the GRA TB???
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| twase |
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EFFalcon wrote: If you're already running a B2 converter, you can get spring kits for them to make them work with GRA throttle bodies, they're about $15. S510 is a pretty large throttle body for an N/A 6, you may find it difficult to get a good tune on it. most N/A 6's run an S440 I'm running an S400 on my Turbo I6, but forced induction changes the flow rates anyway. I recently tried to get one from GRA and they say no longer sell them, I was forced to buy the whole B2 from them.
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| macxr8 |
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Age: 55 Posts: 451 Joined: 3rd Jan 2005 Ride: AU XR6 with BF Turbo engine Location: Sydney |
I have a s510 waiting to go on, previous eng developed 140kw on petrol and 136 on LPG, till a exhaust valve let go and took out number 2 cylinder and piston.
 (am running a modified CMS stg 3 cam, with porting done inhouse at work along with the rest of the engine work)I have a another VCT head (with much more porting and work than previous head) that was waiting to be finished, thats going ahead now with 1 piece stainless valves, single collets, and much bigger diameter. My biggest bug bear is I cant buy ATM the ACL flat top pistons I was running, so my comp will drop from 11.3 down to 10.4. Will also be looking at another CMS cam with the VCT option as the previous cam was non VCT. Once its all settled in, time for an edit as well. Joe seems to think 180-190 is doable..At 136 on lpg, with the impco 200 and B2, im right on the limit both in fuel and air. I had tried to use a 2nd had s440 and while it would not run right the car certainly sounded meaner. So will be interesting to see it all back and running in a few weeks time, as i find time to screw it all back together..
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