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Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel 

 

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 Post subject: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:53 pm 
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Blokes, sorry if this has been done before. I've been all over the shop, can't find an answer to this one.

I've got a BA IL6 dual fuel with injected gas.

I noticed a lumpy idle crept in. It's only noticeable at around 600-750 rpm. Above that it evens out and you don't notice it. I'm not a stickler for fuel consumption so I don't know if it carries thru to higher rpm.

My first guess was a dodgy plug which I hadn't looked at since I bought it. Replaced them and no change.

Did some hunting around and next guess was throttle body. Cleaned that, no luck.

Looking online there could be any number of causes but I don't feel like going thru the encyclopedia of dead ends.

It started as a bit of rough idle on gas. Felt it in D at lights. It gradually got more pronounced. Until recently I could flick over to petrol and it would disappear. Now I get it on both fuels.

I'm thinking it might be a coil. In the old days you'd just disconnect a lead to sus it out. I'm no auto sparky, what do I do, replace all of them on spec without even knowing what the problem is?

Anyone got an idea?

cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:46 am 
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When were the coils last replaced?

How many KM on the car?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:51 am 
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SWC wrote:
When were the coils last replaced?

How many KM on the car?


It's got 213K on the clock. I bought it at 178K and I haven't touched the coils so I don't know if/when they were replaced. They were hard to get off when I did the plugs, almost like they'd fused with the engine.
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:23 pm 
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I would highly recommend that the coils be changed.

Use genuine Ford coils.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:07 pm 
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SWC wrote:
I would highly recommend that the coils be changed.

Use genuine Ford coils.


Cheers, thanks. Stupid question time. Out of curiosity, why only genuine Ford? Bosch and Delphi are heaps cheaper and I would have thought their specs would be right and the quality would be pretty good?
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:32 pm 
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I said that because people have used aftermarket coils and had nothing but issues.

Bosch should be ok you would think though.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:54 pm 
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born n bred wrote:
They were hard to get off when I did the plugs, almost like they'd fused with the engine.
Spray them with CRC before you put them back in, and never seez on the plug threads. If you tear the boots, it gives the spark a chance to arc to the cylinder head.

An ignition issue will usually show up first on LPG, but will occur on both fuels if it is worse enough.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:44 pm 
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born n bred wrote:
SWC wrote:
When were the coils last replaced?

How many KM on the car?


It's got 213K on the clock. I bought it at 178K and I haven't touched the coils so I don't know if/when they were replaced. They were hard to get off when I did the plugs, almost like they'd fused with the engine.



SWC wrote:
I would highly recommend that the coils be changed.

Use genuine Ford coils.


born n bred wrote:
Cheers, thanks. Stupid question time. Out of curiosity, why only genuine Ford? Bosch and Delphi are heaps cheaper and I would have thought their specs would be right and the quality would be pretty good?


SWC wrote:
I said that because people have used aftermarket coils and had nothing but issues.

Bosch should be ok you would think though.



and i'm one of the people that have used the aftermarket ebay specials :roll: if you don't want any problems go with the Bosch .... i had problems with the 1st batch of ebay specials .. but has been fine since fitted the replacements they sent. faulty coil will give you a "lumpy idle" lol :mrgreen: also had fun getting the rear coil out due to it being "stuck" to the plug :x


snap0964 wrote:
born n bred wrote:
They were hard to get off when I did the plugs, almost like they'd fused with the engine.
Spray them with CRC before you put them back in, and never seez on the plug threads. If you tear the boots, it gives the spark a chance to arc to the cylinder head.

An ignition issue will usually show up first on LPG, but will occur on both fuels if it is worse enough.



hmmmm best arrange this asap then coz i don't want the same problem again! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:35 pm 
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You can do the usual while the cover is off and disconnect one coil at a time to see which is the offending one. Obviously, if the car idles worse, that coil is ok, but if there's no change, the coil is suspect.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Thanks for those replies. I'm still tossing up whether to get genuine Ford or Bosch coils after already forking out for brake rotors, pads, drive belt, plugs, coolant, oil/filter this month. I probably should bite the bullet. Been bitten by false economy before. (~$220 versus $150)

One thing that occurred to me today is that I've had dual fuel fords before where the valve/seat has burned (250's and a 351). That was similar symptoms at first from memory. If the after market injected gas was fitted when the car was new could that be a possibility?

I've noticed people talking about using a dongle/adaptor and software (Forscan/Torque) to scan for error codes using phone or laptop. I'm guessing that would pick up a loss of compression? I could pay a mechanic to check error codes but for about the same money I'd be able to use it to diagnose future faults?

Last edited by born n bred on Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:47 pm 
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born n bred wrote:
I'm still tossing up whether to get genuine Ford or Bosch coils after already forking out for brake rotors, pads, drive belt, plugs, coolant, oil/filter this month. I probably should bite the bullet. Been bitten by false economy before. (~$220 versus $150)

I've noticed people talking about using a dongle and software (Forscan) to scan for error codes using phone or laptop. I'm guessing that would pick up a loss of compression? I could pay a mechanic to check error codes but for about the same money I'd be able to use it to diagnose future faults?



i went cheaper with the coils................... :roll:

dunnno about pickin up loss of compression ... but it's good altho i'm still workin out how to use it fully :wink: :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:07 am 
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born n bred wrote:
One thing that occurred to me today is that I've had dual fuel fords before where the valve/seat has burned (250's and a 351). That was similar symptoms at first from memory. If the after market injected gas was fitted when the car was new could that be a possibility?
The alloy SOHC and later DOHC ford engines run well on LPG - provided they're not tuned super lean. A lot has changed since the iron head leaded fuel engines converted to LPG.
Ford got it right with the valve and hardened insert combo - not the same though with some jap commercials that burn valves on LPG.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:31 pm 
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I bought the genuine Ford coils. No change. I've clocked up nearly 4 hours driving around town and I'm getting 17km/100L. The car has a steady vibration under 1,000 rpm. Sometimes when I switch to petrol it will idle smoothly for 5-10 seconds before the vibration starts again but it's always there on gas.

Because the rough idle is steady I'm thinking that rules out an intake manifold leak which would causing surging. Does that sound right?

While I was buying the coils online I also bought one of those $10 OBD2 bluetooth adaptors. Before I spend any more money I'll see what I can work out from that. Any recommendations for software? (It's android or windows compatible)

Any other ideas? New plugs and coils, cleaned throttle body so far.

I'm leaning toward a burnt valve or seat but would have thought that would have worse fuel economy. Could the O2 sensor be stuffed and causing the wrong fuel/air mix at idle? Hopefully being able to check error codes will give me a few leads.

This sounds interesting. I might have to break out the "Start Ya B@stard"... ford-4l-and-6-cylinder-f1/rough-idle-ba-6-cylinder-t99801-15.html
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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:08 am 
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I'd be spraying the inlet manifold gasket for leaks.

 

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97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: Lumpy Idle Dual Fuel
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:56 pm 
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If you had of taken your car to a mechanic, a good one would have diagnosed your problem in ten minutes. you don't describe the miss properly, and there could a heap of problems causing a lumpy idle, it could be as simple as the guts falling out of the pvc valve.
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