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Better ignition on boosted cars? 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:36 pm 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
•Lean mixtures
The shorter spark duration in CDI systems might not be sufficient to ignite enough of the mixture to propagate the flame front through the cylinder. Inductive ignition will perform better in this setup.
Most vehicles, including high performance road and race applications use an inductive ignition system. Generally, if your engine can run correctly on an inductive setup, it is better to leave it that way and install a CDI system only when your engine, due to high RPM or cylinder pressure, requires that you do so.


On this, most CDI systems 'multi-spark' to ensure complete burn. Because there's almost no charge time, the Crane HI-6 ignition I used on my EL, was able to fire up to 6 sparks per cylinder at lower RPM, bringing that number down as RPMs rose, when the time the cylinder is at maximum pressure is less.

Keep note of that if you ever need to run an inductive pickup for RPM sensing (e.g. a timing light, dyno run etc.) as the mutli sparks can confuse things.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:28 pm 
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The symptoms could be as easy to spot such as it's missing under load right up to the point where you are scratching your head looking at a dyno readout wondering why it's not making more power.
Surely the AU's have something cheap and easy to ramp the spark up.
I can't find the aftermarket coils for the BA/F's on Aussie Ford forums either either Data Mine.
I'd love to find a better coil and open the gap up a bit on mine.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:02 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Mine is still inductive.. As in 4 coils in wasted spark ..
If it was direct ignition? I doupt it would be much stronger?? I require a longer stronger spark..
Mine cuts out between 420 and 482 rwkw..
No ignition.. No exhaust !! No boost ..
So things slow down real quick once ignition hits its limits..
Weak valve springs cam give similat symptoms..
Usually around 15Lb boost on 6's..
Fitting a higher amp alternator helps...
Btw just because engines have cop doesn't mean its direct ignition or ample ??..
The Genlll's are lucky to better 400 rwkw with std ignition..
Besides there are heaps of dissy engines with MSD A6 / Crane runing much higher power numbers..
The reason I went away from dissy, was my low compression meant lots of advance can be added to spool turbo at low rpm.. With dissy I had spark crossover issues inside dissy cap no matter where rotor was phased.. So crank, cam sensor and 4 double coils.. AS in latter model V8's..
Timing is far more acurate which is VERY important at these power levels..
400 fwkw will
break a std block..

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:44 am 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
400 fwkw will
break a std block..


They generally say 500hp (~370kW) for a Windsor.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:50 am 
Getting Side Ways
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data_mine wrote:
EBXR8380 wrote:
400 fwkw will
break a std block..


They generally say 500hp (~370kW) for a Windsor.

Yes I was being generous!! Fly wheel horse power too!!
If you check with Ford ? They say 450 fwhp..
Turbo engines tend to be more foregiving power wise!!
But why take the chance!!
Here is another CDI that works VERY well..
http://www.mwignitions.com/cdi2.htm

Australian product ...

 

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Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

Last edited by EBXR8380 on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:56 pm 
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[quote="EBXR8380"]
So things slow down real quick once ignition hits its limits..
Weak valve springs cam give similat symptoms..
Usually around 15Lb boost on 6's..
[quote]


So around 15 psi on boosted 6 is where the ignition starts to be stretched. In this case I should have a fair bit of room to move with my ignition, which sounds good!

Issues for me at the moment are a ping at around 2500-3000rpm (where the engine begins to boost), and the car basically stops making power above 4500rpm (can't even hit rev limiter....just continues to very slowly build revs....the car used to want to rev hard past the rpm limiter). As a result of the ping, the engine is currently tuned quite rich (11:1 at WOT).

I'm hoping the ping is a result of the air temp getting slightly too hot as a result of an upgraded impeller (maybe 2-3psi more boost than standard....means going from 9-11ish psi). If this is the case, the intercooler (Water/Air) should sort it out.

I'm thinking the power stopping above 4500rpm could be a result of too wide plug gap + the rich tune. I'll re-gap plugs and re-tune after intercooler and see what happens. Hopefully can get it running as well or better than it used to! At this stage, from what you guys have suggested, it seems the standard ignition shouldn't be the weak link. Hoping this is the case!

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:45 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Joe..
Imo its ignition causing 90% detonation..
The rpm your experiencing detonation is right on peak torque...
This where the ECU should dump timing and add fuel through this engine load / range..
Try fitting colder plugs?? With short electrode ?? The XR6 plugs protrude out along way ? Could be glowing causing early ignition ?? Even though they are colder plugs..
Oil into inlet / chambers causes detonation also..
Fit oil seperator..

 

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As in ZOOM 126 edition
331 Dart block,3.25/ 4340 steel crank, Oliver rods,TFS ported track heat heads, TFS track heat inlet Twin SC61 turbo's
Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:27 am 
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EBXR, I'll look further into this.

The plugs I have are one stage colder ('6' rather than '5'). I have an oil separator....has collected the most miniscule amount of oil after 6 yrs though.

I'll get plugs right, and look into the tune.

checked out the water/meth stuff on the turboforum you recommended last night....very informative. Will try some different things in this area also.

Joe

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:34 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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OK, I've set plug gap to 0.76mm, which is what I used to gap them.

Plugs are NGK BCPR7's. Standard heat AU111 sparkplug heat range is '5'. I was putting '6' heat range plugs in....the tuner last time put in the '7s'. He would have done this as the '6s' were quite white, indicating too much heat. The 7's currently in are tan colour.

Are these likely to be too cold a heat range?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:44 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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How much water/meth are you pumping in and at what revs Joe?
I've done my maths and if i was to use it because of my HP i'd start at 3K and use a single 370cc nozzle full tilt at peak PSI to be at about 20% or a fifth total volume. I have a regulator to pump higher pSI as boost rises,so it would come on at about 3lb boost low psi and go harder as the revs rise..

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:18 pm 
Tyre Shredder
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Ok....I've gapped the plugs and there is no difference. Still pinging between 2500-3000rpm, and power begins to die above 4500rpm.

Has anyone experienced and can explain this though.....I've just been driving for 1/2 hour with these results:

Engine develops a ping at 2500-3000rpm even at light load, for a while. Example - a quick half throttle stab will induce pinging....half throttle at these revs up a slight hill will induce pinging.
But, this will only happen for a period. Each time the engine begins to ping even slightly, I would back off. After around 10 of these light stab or load induced pings, the detonation becomes less noticeable, to the point where it stops happening. I can then stab or rev the engine through this 2500-300rpm rev range without issue (no detonation), though it still stops making power around 4500rpm.

Anyone have an understanding why this happens? Would the motec management be putting more fuel in, or pulling out timing, after a period of not doing this? Could it be a function of the water/meth injection?

Badcooky, not sure of the water/meth nozzle flow rate, but its large (was sized for 4L engine and my power), I think it was a M5 if that means anything. Injection kicks in around 3psi and above 2000rpm at the moment. Its mostly related to the psi .... eg. water/meth won't be delivered at 2000rpm unless the engine is developing 3psi. I've tried bringing water/meth in at higher and lower boost/rpm levels with little difference to the abovementioned issues.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Can someone assist me in working out what coil/module/bits I need to improve the spark on my car please?

Car details are as follows:

AU2
auto with shift kit
Raptor s/c
8mm spiral core leads
max boost of 7psi
max revs of 5000rpm
XR6 plugs with 8.8mm gap

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:39 pm 
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heres the MSD unit

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Bran ... toview=sku

ill admit that dual stage spark for low rpm sounds juicy. MAN truck engines been using that for some time now, and it kicks a***.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:20 pm 
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shav wrote:
Can someone assist me in working out what coil/module/bits I need to improve the spark on my car please?


Shav, from what others have said, it seems that the standard AU ignition on your car will be more than up to the task for your setup. Next step would be a CDI like the abovementioned MSD Dis-4, or a M&W unit. They're both currently well over $1000 new. It seems CDI's only become necessary at the higher boost (15+psi) and power levels.

Joe

 

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 Post subject: Re: Better ignition on boosted cars?
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:30 am 
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JoeXR6 wrote:
shav wrote:
Can someone assist me in working out what coil/module/bits I need to improve the spark on my car please?


Shav, from what others have said, it seems that the standard AU ignition on your car will be more than up to the task for your setup. Next step would be a CDI like the abovementioned MSD Dis-4, or a M&W unit. They're both currently well over $1000 new. It seems CDI's only become necessary at the higher boost (15+psi) and power levels.

Joe


Thanks for your advice Joe and Nath. Very helpful. I probably wont bother with a HP version. Will look into getting the current one replaced with an OEM version as Im having some issues starting the car while the engine is already hot. i.e. turns over fine but doesnt start.

Could the CP be the main cause for my issues?

 

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