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Blower not boosting properly - Part II 

 

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 Post subject: Blower not boosting properly - Part II
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:51 pm 
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I've changed my set up in the last week from the 2.9" pulley to the 2.7" pulley (4-6psi to 9psi). With doing that I've added and intercooler and the appropriate piping (PWR 600 x 300 x 76mm intercooler with 3" inlet and outlet, 3" 2mm wall aluminium tubing, Turbosmart silicone joiners and Tridon Hybrid clamps).
Drove the car for the first time this morning and the boost is not going past around 4 psi.
But I'm very positive that the boost is coming on earlier than the previous setup, but it seems to just stop increasing as it should.
This to me indicates blow off valve prematurely opening. I'll play around with some of the stiffer springs I have lying around this week.
However, the car is still driving nice and both the engine and blower seem happy.
Somebody also mentioned that the intercooler can cause a pressure drop, but surely a, supposebly quality, intercooler like the PWR unit should have minimum pressure drop?

 

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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Take the intercooler out of the equation and see how that affects things.

The blow off valve may be leaking. Plug and see how that affects things.

Are there any signs of belt slip?

Just keep changing one thing at a time, you'll find it.
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:43 pm 
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xr8ute wrote:
Are there any signs of belt slip?


The belts about 2,000kms old and I sprayed it with CRC Belt Grip. There's nothing that's indicated to me that it's slipping.

 

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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:08 pm 
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the pressure drop would be bigger in an efficient cooler as cool the same amount of hot air to cold air there will be a drop in pressure - the better the cooling the more the pressure will drop.

that said, the powerdyne shouldn't really heat air all that much, and being down in tassie i wouldn't think the cooler would be doing that much work.

I would be looking at the BOV or possibly a leak in the piping

 

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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:41 am 
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I'd say one of the clamps isn't hooked in right or something like that. Remember to double or even triple check.

I'd say you would be able to hear if the bov is opening.

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:26 am 
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Ok, so uni started and the cars been running fine (just not making enough boost) so I havn't bothered with this problem.

With the easter break this morning I took another look. All the clamps are definately tight like a tiger - no trouble there.

The belts got CRC Belt Grip all over it and I can't see any issues with it. I have a tighter belt here, but didn't have anyone to help me fit it.

So next I looked at the BOV as this was the issue last time. I fitted a stiffer spring in it. Took the car for a drive and no change, just that there was less BOV noise and the BOV was not opening as much at idle etc.

Next I removed the intercooler (PWR 600 x 300 x 76mm Aero II). In it's place i just made up some straight pipe and cable tied it to the body of the car (remembering that this is just for testing purposes):

Image
Image

Took the car for a drive and I saw 7psi, which is 3 psi more. So clearly the problem lies in the intercooler causing a 3psi pressure drop. The other missing 2psi could be due to overrated pulley or the intercooler piping being too long and too big a diamter (3").

So the question is what to do now. I'm not going to water cooling as I want something that's reliable and doesn't need constant maintence (i.e. filling up the water).
I reckon that even if I reduce the size of the intercooler I will still get some pressure drop.
So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA - I'm not sure on the psi rating on this, I'd estimate 11/12psi. I'll fit the intercooler back and hopefully that should get me 9psi into the manifold. Side effect to this is that it will be overreving the blower by redline - shouldn't be an issue as I never actually take the engine to redline and if the belt or bearings go it's an excuse to send the PD off to Raptor for a rebuild with the 60,000rpm bearings and belt combo as well as an air cooling system.
If not then I'll get a 928 Motorsports 20% impellor from Raptor SC which will increase the boost another 20% and should definately be 9psi then (and a very cold 9psi aswell).
And as a backup resort just incase that still isn't getting the boost level I'll reduce the size of the intercooler if need be.

So well see what happens next.
Now I need to go and refit the original BOV spring.

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:55 pm 
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water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection.

water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system..
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:20 pm 
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Okay mate i had this issue with my blower and you might want to look at all of your vacuum lines double check these because it will make a difference, after i found the bastard i hooked up a line and bang now im getting 8.5 psi@5500 rpm.

Just check those and see how you go might be a shot in the dark but at least you will cross that off the list.

Brad
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:20 am 
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glenneaux wrote:
water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection.

water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system..


Well aware of that, but it's also heavier than a typical air to air system and more expensive.

 

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:46 am 
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Just remember that not all intercooler are the same. if i could find the forum where this bloke tested well known manufacturer and compared it a cheap alternative. they all had variation in pressure and the amount of CFM. the one with the highest cfm had the most drop in psi. probably more suited for big boost application. the cheaper brand fare quite well but the drawback was the quality of workmanship, cosmetic wise that is!

pipe work- around 2.5' is ideal for 6 to 10psi setup. bigger pipes takes longer to fill with air and maintain the rated psi. thats my opinion anyway.

 

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:58 am 
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Quote:
So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA


Check what RPM this pulley will spin the blower at. it will probably over spin the blower, powerdynes don't like that, and will cook the bearings.

i would get your current intercooler pressure tested, might be a leak in that somewhere who knows.
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:42 am 
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MMD wrote:
Quote:
So I've decided to get a 2.5" pulley from CAPA


Check what RPM this pulley will spin the blower at. it will probably over spin the blower, powerdynes don't like that, and will cook the bearings.

i would get your current intercooler pressure tested, might be a leak in that somewhere who knows.


Yes, as mentioned above it will, hence why I'm planning to get the Raptor SC's higher rated bearings and active air cooling.

 

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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:49 pm 
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twr7cx wrote:
glenneaux wrote:
water to air cooling wouldnt have to be constantly filled up, dont confuse it and water injection.

water to air cooler is like the radiator in the car, its a closed system..


Well aware of that, but it's also heavier than a typical air to air system and more expensive.


f**k mate

your talking about wieght in a falcon
knob jocky!

and cost?? again u have just supercharged your car and u are talkign about a few $$ extra for more efficient air charge cooling...
get a brain

the water to air will have less pipe work as well

http://www.fordmods.com/forums/viewtopi ... highlight=

there is half you water to air setup
im sure u could make it fit

 

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 Post subject: Cooler
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:21 am 
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My 5c going in here

Firstly with a Powerdyne blower the amount of heat to strip from the charge air is nothing like as great as some others. How about going for a 280x300x76mm with 3" tanks it will run at better than 60% efficiency and your pressure drop will be approx 1.2psi.

Big coolers are not really needed for belt (internal) type centrifugal chargers and rob performance as the blower may not have enough extra psi capacity to push hard enough so there is still something coming out the other end that has a meaningful amount of PSI.

Would look at belt slip in this instance as well

Finally always use 3" pipework for engines 3.8 litre or more, proven a hundred times in spite of "calculations" that 2.5" is useless unless you prefer a 3psi or more pressure drop. Been there done that. As for the comment about it take a longer to fill, that is simply incorrect, it is always near full and when the thing filling it is no where near its pumping limit the extra bit of density needed to pressure it up is next to nothing.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Cooler
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:13 am 
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Tradewind wrote:
My 5c going in here

Firstly with a Powerdyne blower the amount of heat to strip from the charge air is nothing like as great as some others. How about going for a 280x300x76mm with 3" tanks it will run at better than 60% efficiency and your pressure drop will be approx 1.2psi.

Big coolers are not really needed for belt (internal) type centrifugal chargers and rob performance as the blower may not have enough extra psi capacity to push hard enough so there is still something coming out the other end that has a meaningful amount of PSI.

Would look at belt slip in this instance as well

Finally always use 3" pipework for engines 3.8 litre or more, proven a hundred times in spite of "calculations" that 2.5" is useless unless you prefer a 3psi or more pressure drop. Been there done that. As for the comment about it take a longer to fill, that is simply incorrect, it is always near full and when the thing filling it is no where near its pumping limit the extra bit of density needed to pressure it up is next to nothing.


Sorry, I'm firing misleading opinion to get answers! LOL

there will always be pressure but wouldn't the volume/capacity of pipes & inter-cooler affect overall psi, especially with blower that has low CFM air delivery?
wouldn't the psi drop mean the air is colder & dense, overall better? :P

As our friend with the problem, how could he encounter so much trouble with a bolt on system?
Well my opinion is to start of simple!
The only way to trace his problem is to disconnect the inter-cooler & run the standard set up, remove the bov. run the intake tube directly to the T/B. thats the only way he'll pin point the fault I reckon. with so much changes to his setup, the problem is buried deeper & deeper.
:roll:

 

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