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Dyno Vs Dyno ! 

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:47 am 
Getting Side Ways
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maybe adrian's dyno is reading 17% lower then elsewhere.
who knows, simply don't compare from dyno to dyno and you're set.

another thing you've got to remember, yes there were 2 cars that have 107rwkw and 108rwkw.
but thats peak power... which means sfa on a 400m track.
there isnt any reason why 108rwkw from the 17 second EA isnt accurate, the engine is fresh, and has a few mods.
max's engine is pretty freaky, and always has been.

but just because both cars have the same peak power, doens't mean one doesnt kill the other over the rest of the rev range.
we *know* the EA has sfa power down low for various reasons, this alone will kill its times.

for a good example

my car ran 15.9 on LPG with 124rwkw
my car ran 16.4 on ULP with 130rwkw
anyone want to explain that one?
both the dyno runs were on the same dyno on the same day.
to put it simply, my car on ULP has fueling issues under 3000rpm, so getting it up and moving to use that 130rwkw takes a while.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Load cell
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:02 pm 
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v8capri wrote:

We should do a dyno crawl !!
The more the merrier. :lol:


If its on a weekend and the car isnt sold, Ill run my car to see the difference.

I would like to see if the rebuilt turbo makes a difference to anything anyway.
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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:04 pm 
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EFFalcon wrote:
maybe adrian's dyno is reading 17% lower then elsewhere.
who knows, simply don't compare from dyno to dyno and you're set.

another thing you've got to remember, yes there were 2 cars that have 107rwkw and 108rwkw.
but thats peak power... which means sfa on a 400m track.
there isnt any reason why 108rwkw from the 17 second EA isnt accurate, the engine is fresh, and has a few mods.
max's engine is pretty freaky, and always has been.

but just because both cars have the same peak power, doens't mean one doesnt kill the other over the rest of the rev range.
we *know* the EA has sfa power down low for various reasons, this alone will kill its times.

for a good example

my car ran 15.9 on LPG with 124rwkw
my car ran 16.4 on ULP with 130rwkw
anyone want to explain that one?
both the dyno runs were on the same dyno on the same day.
to put it simply, my car on ULP has fueling issues under 3000rpm, so getting it up and moving to use that 130rwkw takes a while.


Nice point there John.... But my 17% figure came from 4 dynos. 1 at Hallam (141rwkw) , whereas the others came from 3 separate dynos, including JMM's "lying" dyno, where I got a 122rwkw. Even JMM inflated figures couldnt match what I achieved at Hallam.

Peak power can mean alot. As we have discussed before, it takes X power to move X weight across X distance. Thats a mathamatical fact.

In which case how do you explain Max Vs John Z. Identical times by the end of the night. Similar mods and car weights, both autos, but John Z having a 3.45, and his best was .01sec better than Max. But John's dyno shows 132rwkw, whereas Max shows 107rwkw. To me thats a fair difference for the same end result.

As my car being the control car, it should post identical times on the respective dyno compared to its previous runs. ie, I should get near 119 on my dyno and 141 on Hallam, considering the car is the same car as it was when the runs were made. If there are differences, then there will be questions.

I like the idea's of weights. It would be a highly controlled way of showing a reading. Maybe we could include that in the test if the owners / operators are OK with it.

If the figures do differ with no external influences, then yes, I think this dyno manufacturer has some questions to answer.
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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:07 pm 
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This is true, we all talk about dynos and 1/4 mile times.
the peak power is what we talk about, not progressive torque, which is what the 1/4 mile is all about.

same engine different stall speeds or diff gears can affect rw kw.

My capri for example many years ago made 350 rw HP on the summernats dyno yet ran 9.7 over the 1/4 the week before.

I'm not fussed about it but I know many people who live and die by these figures.

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:14 pm 
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v8capri wrote:
I'm not fussed about it but I know many people who live and die by these figures.


As yes, thank you... Summed it up exactly.

Wouldnt it be nice to say that the figure you are quoting is bloody accurate. I cant say that some of the figures I've achieved I consider bloody accurate.

Come on Paul, surely you must consider yourself in this group. As you, like many others, proudly display your dyno outputs in your signature. 8-)

If your dyno graph showed the power output at each speed/rpm as vastly inflated, wouldn't you be getting a poor picture of what the engine is actually doing? And if you found out that you may have been chasing your tail for a long time, would you be p****d. :D
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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Hrmm,
well due to possible dyno figures being different, this is why I always tune my car on the same dyno, this way I know if the figures are higher or lower than last time.
Otherwise if I chop and change dynos while tuning, I could be chasing my tail. Which I know you would agree.

The figure in my sign was done at Summernats, in front of all the public, so I figured it is worthy of posting.

What I believe is wrong is to compare dynos, would be like comparing 1/4 mile figures at different tracks that are much higher or lower than sea level.

But 17% that you state is a big difference, and If your allegation is true, I want to be there to see it.

I have had many upset ppl on my dyno days as their figurs is lower than when they had their car tuned on a different dyno the day before.

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:25 pm 
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i'd display my dyno figures in my sig if i'd won as many comps as him and had over 400rwkw.
don't matter what dyno its on, 400rwkw is damn impressive.

so if your car has ~117rwkw then why was your car slower then max's (107rwkw).
work out that reason and you might know why John_xr6's car was running similar times to max's.

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:48 pm 
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EFFalcon wrote:
i'd display my dyno figures in my sig if i'd won as many comps as him and had over 400rwkw.
don't matter what dyno its on, 400rwkw is damn impressive.

so if your car has ~117rwkw then why was your car slower then max's (107rwkw).
work out that reason and you might know why John_xr6's car was running similar times to max's.


Thank you :D

The group A has more rw kw power than my Capri, but i still drag the capri and not the Group A
That is because both cars are built for different things.

 

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Other car 580 hp @ wheels now 624.7 hp !!

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:18 pm 
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EFFalcon wrote:
i'd display my dyno figures in my sig if i'd won as many comps as him and had over 400rwkw.
don't matter what dyno its on, 400rwkw is damn impressive.

so if your car has ~117rwkw then why was your car slower then max's (107rwkw).
work out that reason and you might know why John_xr6's car was running similar times to max's.


I was commenting on Pauls comment about living and dying by dyno figures and how he doesnt care about them, which I cant see to tbe true. His Group A is designed for dyno figures, and is always striving for more. To me, this fits under the live and die comment.

As for why my car was slower, a couple of things to think of. My car was running completely as on the street. Same wheels, spare in the boot. Tool kit in the boot, plus I am physically alot heavier than Max (derrrr :D). I didnt remove the spare or sub or amps or floor mats or mobile carkit or all my s**t from glovebox and centre console and didn't put on stockies, and had a 3/4 tank of fuel and I'm running a 3.45, which we both know John is a lot heaver than a 3.23 single spinner. So extra weight and not knowing how to drive a manual quick off the line, might have had a slight influence in the times.

P.S. I cant wait to piss off this manual. 1/4 drags were alot simpler with an auto. :D
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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:22 pm 
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mmm i did remove alot of things, but i think you shouldve run steelies lol!!!

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:50 pm 
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This all sounds very interesting.

Can you put the results into an Excel graph or something so we can see the differences. Make sure both cars are running in the same gear, diff ratio etc. And work it out in terms of engine RPM (which is easier then Km/h to see).
Also get the A/F ratio's down too, that way we can see if the cars are re-tuning themselves between runs.
Also can you get a printout of the dyno input factors? like air pressure and temperature and even this X-factor too. Post all this up it will be very interesting.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Load cell
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:36 pm 
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v8capri wrote:
FPV_GTp wrote:
hi guys

Firstly lets have a look at some things so people understand what is going on

if the same car is run on the same brand of dyno the Hp should be the same regardless whether it be in shotout mode or just manaul mode

My dyno is a dyno dynamics late model piece of equipment like many other dynos out there

The dyno houses a Eddy current retard connect to the front rollers of the dyno which is connect to a pressure sensor(laod cell)

If i place a 1kg wieght on the end of the torque arm connnected to a load cell we should see a force exserted of 1kg and on the monitor of the dyno we should see a number equating to that force its a method dyno dynmamics have built in the dyno it self

so my piont is lets hang a know weight on the end of any dyno dynamics dyno and see what readings we get .
hence there is no driver error nor temputure or barometric changes that should affect the reading

i will post a picture so people can visualize what im saying in a few days

the shootout software has alot of questions hanging over its head??

the INTERIA (N) is another method that show a higher and lower Hp figure on the dyno

the X ( external correction ) factor is another that can shower a higher or lower dyno reading

The air tempature sensor is another that can affect different dyno readings

and then the operator behind the throttle is another big influencing factor

so to evaluate all dscrepancys ,a know weight hanging on the end of the retarter where the load cell is should be the best indicator if the dynos are calibratered the same or there all at random because a 17 % reading difference in my books is a HUGE error and needs explernation

i will post several pictures later lets see what we work out

cya


hrmm quite interesting.
It does make sense,
We are involved in calibrating instruments, and do have the certified weights that you mention.

Oh to dyno the Group A I will inspect you tie downs and your tie down methods, as the car gets very skatey and usually wheel spins after 600 hp.
The best way I have found to dyno it is tie it down the best and a full car load of guys !

Some may laugh but it picks up 30-40 rw kw that way !

Oh and this started cause the Hallam dyno is being accused of reading 17% higher.
so when this is done i expect to see 17% difference in results.
Then I will approach Gerry at Dyno dynamics with the results and ask for a reason why.

We should do a dyno crawl !!
The more the merrier. :lol:


Hi

lol ok but im confidant i can hold the car on the chassis dyno without any guys in the car or boot for that matter

like i said have had cars running 10 and 9 second passes down the quarter mile on my dyno and there scarey :wink:

promise i want hurt ur car and the method i employ to tie the car down to the dyno will not either

so if ur interested the offer is still open to run the car on the dyno

ur call :wink: :wink: :wink:

cya

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:59 pm 
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Im eagerly awaiting the results

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:59 pm 
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I'm considering pulling out of this.
Not because I am chicken ! But because I have nothing to prove.
I am not the dyno owner , nor the operator on the day. I merely hired Hallam Performance to hold Dyno comps for the public. ( and what a grateful lot you were !)
If you have a gripe, and it is quite clear that you do, take it up with Hallam Performance.

I held these dyno days to help everyone and have some fun, the critism that you get, almost makes it not worth it.

Personally I don't live nor die by the dyno figure, even though I put it in my sig. maybe on another dyno it is lower, maybe higher, still my run is 600+ so I show off ! ( cause I can !)
For the record I haven't made 624 hp @ hallam yet ! I wish it was 17% as I would be over 700!

Maybe if we used a dyno that read apples, then there would be no comparism.

And to bag Dan, you know that is childish and not fair.

Out.

 

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Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:12 pm 
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hmm this is a bit of an anti-climax..

 

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