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Falcon I6 4lt Turbo PLENUM ( intake manifold ) 

 

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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:09 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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thankyou for the comments,

try this link http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=33135

got the throttle from stryder performance, its a copy of the veilside unit.

wont be checking individual cylinder temps, well, not unless the dyno im going on has the temp probes for it, if it does then i will use em'

the a/f sensor in each cylinder is a good idea, except no o2 sensor can stand the heat generated in a turbo manifold, nor can they read correctly under pressure, especially not 20+psi... They are ultra sensitive to pressure variations

cheers, brad

 

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EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI

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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:03 pm 
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hi

thanks for that link , and keep up the good work a very nice job indeed

there are oxygen senosrs that will cope under these conditions but very expensive , it would be in ur favour to have at least EGT sensors in the individual exhaust runners to determine where cylinders are been favoured as this can be recterfied and you will make more power

just one example , if you have say anyone of the cylinders out of the 6 favoured , just say for arguement sake cylinder 1 that means you will be filling that cylinder more than any of the others in comparison to each other , you will be reading the exhaust air/fuel ratio of the combine 6 cylinders if your using on exhaust probe upstream when dynoing your car that means you will be adjusting the fuel for all 6 cylinders combined together and adding more fuel to compinsate for that cylinder number 1 which is running leaner ( more air in the cylinder ) which in turn is making all the other cylinders richer as compared to cylinder one means less power

thats just one simple example

through out my years in the motor industry its amazing what people use to correct manifolds to work properly form adding foreign objects into the manifold to welding to grinding and so forth so im opinion i would be having a very close look into even cylinder fill and you will be astonished at the amount of power you will gain from even cylinder fill

this section is a cut&paste from ur thread what i posted
"hi

very nice work

altronics is a very well known brand of Australian made ECU's but yes pricey but good

for hi boost application ignition systems people neglect to inprove over the stock standard system the car manufactures use , just remember the spark starts all the way back in the coil secondary winding and has to travel and jump air gaps and then u have the last stage of its travel jump the plug gap and ignitie the air/fuel ratio under high sylinder pressure trying to put the flame out so YES A VERY HIGH OUTPUT IGNITION system is required for turbo application

another very good brand of igintion systems is M&W IGNITIONS at www.mwignitions.com this croud supply most of the touring car racers HIGH ENERGY IGNITION SYSTEMS and there australian made .

I will be using there services for the ignition side of things on my project

keep up the good work would love to give the VL commodore guys some hell at the race track so lets see some big horsepower Fords I6's '


and once again keep up the good work

cheers

 

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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:52 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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FPV_GTp wrote:
there are oxygen senosrs that will cope under these conditions but very expensive

hmmm, could you give details of these, as far as i know, there is no bosch/ntk sensor capable of this... maybe would be ok in a normal set of extractors, but not a turbo manifold, even the best bosch o2 sensor has to be positioned no closer than roughly 6" from the turbine housing due to the fact that the heat will kill it...

as for cylinder filling, if there is some probes handy ill give em a go, if not, so be it... i dont think at my power level its really gonna concern me.. its not like im ever gona chop my manifold up to resurect any probs anyway. my 2c

 

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EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI

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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:12 pm 
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LOL no problems

see how u go have fun will be interesting

qestions for you

Q1 . How hot is the exhaust manifold on a normally aspirated engine on wide open throttle with correct air/fuel ratio ?

Q2 . How hot is the exhaust manifold on a turbo charged engine on wide open throttle with correct air/fuel ratio ?

cheers

 

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:17 am 
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Ok, this is getting off topic

as for actual degC numbers for you, i dont know

but, as you would most likely know, it takes just one full power run in just about any turbo car to cause the exhaust manifold to glow red, but, i couldnt tell you of any times where ive ever seen a set of extractors glow red on a dyno after making one power run... sure, if held full noise for long enough, they eventually glow red... BUT quite clearly theres now way near the amount of heat inside the pipe considering extractors are made of exhaust tube and a turbo manifold is made from 3mm thick material..

ive seen a vid of an sr20 making 600hp and the exhaust was red within 5 secs on an engine dyno, ive also spent a day in the engine dyno room at the 888 workshop and not once were the pipes on that engine red, and it was making 617hp.

Also, you posed the question and included using the correct a/f ratio (how do you define correct a/f ratio) bearing in mind that A/F ratio has lesser effect on egt than ign timing

did you find the details on those sensors???

 

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EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:49 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ahhh go all the way.. Low 11's..Stock motor....
ImageImageImage

 

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As in ZOOM 126 edition
331 Dart block,3.25/ 4340 steel crank, Oliver rods,TFS ported track heat heads, TFS track heat inlet Twin SC61 turbo's
Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:51 am 
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Image

 

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As in ZOOM 126 edition
331 Dart block,3.25/ 4340 steel crank, Oliver rods,TFS ported track heat heads, TFS track heat inlet Twin SC61 turbo's
Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:47 am 
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mmm, yes officer, that was a factory option!!!

i think mikes dyno did better with the 10.5 and they retained the std manifold...

 

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EB 4L, 8.4:1, R154, GT4202r, 4in exhaust, Greenslade Engineering exhaust manifold, plenum chamber, 90mm throttle, Garrett W2A cooler, Surecam custom, autronic SM4, Bosch 120lb, Crane HI-6, LX-92, LM-1, Turbosmart Reg, 2x bosch 044, turbosmart 48 gate. 470kw+ @ 18PSI

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:03 am 
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ebs_4l wrote:
Ok, this is getting off topic

as for actual degC numbers for you, i dont know

but, as you would most likely know, it takes just one full power run in just about any turbo car to cause the exhaust manifold to glow red, but, i couldnt tell you of any times where ive ever seen a set of extractors glow red on a dyno after making one power run... sure, if held full noise for long enough, they eventually glow red... BUT quite clearly theres now way near the amount of heat inside the pipe considering extractors are made of exhaust tube and a turbo manifold is made from 3mm thick material..

ive seen a vid of an sr20 making 600hp and the exhaust was red within 5 secs on an engine dyno, ive also spent a day in the engine dyno room at the 888 workshop and not once were the pipes on that engine red, and it was making 617hp.

Also, you posed the question and included using the correct a/f ratio (how do you define correct a/f ratio) bearing in mind that A/F ratio has lesser effect on egt than ign timing

did you find the details on those sensors???


hi

LOL my piont is that

both normally and turbo charged engines the exhaust manifold will glow red under wide open throttle full noise

the turbo engine will come on quicker as the volume of hot exhaust gasses has increased as ur flowing more air into the cylinders

what is the correct air/fuel ratio ?
correct air/fuel ratio is where a particular engine combination makes maximium power ( most effective power ) where there is no deternation caused by a lack of fuel ( note timing is not even mentioned )

generally for a normally aspirated engine max power is produced between 12:1 upto 12.5:1 air/fuel ratio

a turbo charged motor produces max power between 10.5 upto 11.5:1 air/fuel ratio but it strongly depends on the air temp as the air charge temp absorbs the fuel as a cooling agent ( same applys to normally aspirated engines to a lesser degree ) so depending how well the incoming air charge is cooled will affect the air/fuel ratio engine

the reason i said correct air/fuel ratio is the leaner the burn the hotter the exhaust will get

exhaust temps will be in the vercanty of 800 degrees upto 900 degrees

and remember normally aspirated and turbo engnes will be close to each other in exhaust temps

u can use a oxygen sensor very close to the exhaust port outlet but the life of the sensor will be very short where even using some exotic fuels shorts the life span of oxygen sensors

now Ignition timing will alos effect the glowing of the exhaust also but in different ways once again if u retard the timing causes all sorts of problems right upto advancing the timing to the piont where u introduce deternation cuased by ignition timing lets leave this timing part out of the convo.

i will get a part number which lab oxygen sensors can be mounted very close to the exhaust port exit

but for R&D purposes , experimenting mite involve say extending the turbo headers extra say for arguements sake a extra 6 to 8 inches to make measurements possible with say a $280 each oxygen sensors so one can mount say in my cause 6 oxygen sensors to monitor all 6 cylinders at the same time measurements on a engine dyno .

R&D can cost one large sums of money which alot of people are not willing to pay for

I have 3 engine dynos , just setting up one for only 6 cylinder E series falcon motors

cheers

 

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Last edited by FPV_GTp on Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:18 am 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
Ahhh go all the way.. Low 11's..Stock motor....
ImageImageImage


hi

very nice setup for drag application

will be interesting to see this vehicle run

post more pics please of the plenum and the turbo setup if u have them

what is the quickest time and mile per hour and reaction times this car has run ???

or discuss any other feature and specs of your car

cheers

 

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:24 pm 
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Age: 64

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Gallery: 4 images

Power: 482 rwkw

Location: Penrith
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Ride: EB SERIES 2 GLI
Engine type and displacement: ford 4L
Induction: Turbo
Major modifications: gt3540 turbo, intercooler, mod trans, mini spool, ems8860 , msd cdi ,
Tranny type: Automatic
Tires: Slicks
Race weight: 1450kgs
Horsepower: 369.0
60 foot time: 1.590
1/8 Mile ET: 7.273
1/8 Mile MPH: 93.10
1/4 Mile ET: 11.433
1/4 Mile MPH: 117.68
Density Altitude: 29.96
Track Name: wsid
Timeslip:

 

_________________

As in ZOOM 126 edition
331 Dart block,3.25/ 4340 steel crank, Oliver rods,TFS ported track heat heads, TFS track heat inlet Twin SC61 turbo's
Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:27 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Posts: 3552

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Gallery: 4 images

Power: 482 rwkw

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Will be at Wsid on the 26th....

 

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As in ZOOM 126 edition
331 Dart block,3.25/ 4340 steel crank, Oliver rods,TFS ported track heat heads, TFS track heat inlet Twin SC61 turbo's
Project 1UZ-EF has started.. S475 Turbo 4.0 V8 Mustang Celica.....

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:03 pm 
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after looking at the pics of that eb...i must say im happy in the pants right now :D sooooo tuff!

 

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:16 pm 
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I feel it even cyl filling that makes most large pleums work.
You've gotta hand it to the VL guys for there manifold ideas... Also I like the idea of having the TB up closer to intercooler, but I wonder how this affects throttle response
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 Post subject: Do u judge a book by its cover
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:47 am 
Getting Side Ways
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ebs_4l wrote:
mmm, yes officer, that was a factory option!!!

i think mikes dyno did better with the 10.5 and they retained the std manifold...


Hi



LOL believe me what may look stock standard on the out side may not appear to be so on the inside

i know Mike from way back in drag racings

there would of been endless hours on the engine and chassis dyno sorting out things

" Do u judge a book by its cover " leave u a thought there to ponder on

There are a lot of theories and principles in designing a plenum for a turbo charged engine but still the only way to test is on a engine dyno and a chassis dyno and then the Race track if the car is setup right for drags application to get the best results

Data logging information and analyzing it can lead to better results in engine tuning techniques where faults lie in engine design

Even streeters can be tested at the race track

any other interest pics guys or stories lets see and hear

cheers

 

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