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How far can the Stock ECU be pushed? 

 

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 Post subject: How far can the Stock ECU be pushed?
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:55 am 
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What can you run on the stock ECU?
As in boost etc.

I was talkin to a guy ages ago who said he was runnin a EL ecu on his EB with about 7 psi of boost, no chip or anythin like that.

N a few others who said that id be lucky if my car kept going if i tried to run boost w/o a aftermarket ecu or good chip


Has anyone tried?
Or seen a running example/actual result?

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:28 am 
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Forced Induction? I'm fairly sure you need a chip!

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:45 am 
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Yeah with forced induction you really need to look at a chip. Forced induction needs a lot of extra fuel as well as timing changes, if you try and do it without a chip its a blowen head gasket waiting to happen IMO. Normally even with the chip it can only be pushed to 6-8psi, after that you would be looking at aftermarket.
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:19 am 
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Get the right maf and you'll be fine..The Pro_m univer blow maf through type is popular with twin turbo applications for example..

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:53 am 
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EBXR8380 wrote:
Get the right maf and you'll be fine..The Pro_m univer blow maf through type is popular with twin turbo applications for example..


Easily done for the 8 but a 6 would need a speed density -> MAF conversion... prolly not too hard to do with a tweecer.

The only way i can think someone could run 7psi with no EEC mods is with a steep FMU and retard the buggery out of the base timing..... OK for EA-ED/EL... no hope on EF.

Surely you'd need to do something with the MAP?!? I cant imagine a stock sensor would be expecting to see +psi manifold pressure....

 

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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:59 pm 
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hmm somethin to think anout n look at.
On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different.
I dont know s**t about engine management

Does anyone know what TSA use on there stage 1 kits?

Always get conflicting advice regarding the ecu, but most say its a no go.

Im looking at an ems 8860 form a guy down the road, but wanna check this first.

Ive got a to4, intercooler and manifold lined up, but had some unexpected bills, so need to cut back somewhere for a while, or its all a no go.
...should proberly spend the money on sensible stuff for uni n s**t... Ill see what happens but
:D

 

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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:40 am 
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Jase wrote:
hmm somethin to think anout n look at.
On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different.
I dont know s**t about engine management


Altering the MAF sensor really won't do anything at all. You can run pretty big cams on the stock EEC without any mods, how big are you talking about, with a turbo you really don't need huge cams anyway. The bad idle from large cams comes from the low vacuum produced at idle, not much you can really do about it except play with timing and richen up the idle AF ratio to help it out.
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:58 am 
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EDXR8 wrote:
Jase wrote:
hmm somethin to think anout n look at.
On my 8 we were going to do soem modifications to the maf sensor so i could run a huge cam w/o a chip or anythin, but thats a lil different.

I dont know s**t about engine management


Altering the MAF sensor really won't do anything at all. You can run pretty big cams on the stock EEC without any mods, how big are you talking about, with a turbo you really don't need huge cams anyway. The bad idle from large cams comes from the low vacuum produced at idle, not much you can really do about it except play with timing and richen up the idle AF ratio to help it out.

Cant exactly remember what cam it was, a guy we met was goin to do it .

His 5L puts out about 290rwhp with a bit of head work, cam, springs etc, and cuts a 12.6 down the 1/4. He fiddled with somethin to do with the maf to alter fuel input...? Cant remeber exactly what the go was. Could ring him again if need be
Afaik, the modded maf was the only thing other than head, cam, tb mods

I have no idea how the electrics work, am reading into it atm.
The 5l example was just somehting i thought of.

Had a heap of little things written down to get around different aspects to allow for a turbo w/o fancy aftermarket gear, but computer got formatted :( wah

 

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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:08 am 
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Jase wrote:
His 5L puts out about 290rwhp with a bit of head work, cam, springs etc, and cuts a 12.6 down the 1/4. He fiddled with somethin to do with the maf to alter fuel input...? Cant remeber exactly what the go was. Could ring him again if need be

I have no idea how the electrics work, am reading into it atm.
The 5l example was just somehting i thought of.

Had a heap of little things written down to get around different aspects to allow for a turbo w/o fancy aftermarket gear, but computer got formatted :( wah


He would need a lot more than a bit of head work, cam, springs to get 290rwhp, even the guys running top rated AFR heads, intake, big cams etc get those sort of numbers. There really isn't any way to get that sort of power without spending big time.

Yes there are tricks to help tune the stock EEC but when it comes to forced induction things really start getting hard. Firstly altering the sensors to run richer will throw out load calculations and add timing, two things you do not want hapening under boost. Also the factory EEC will stay at 14.7 AF ratio for between 2 and 4 seconds of heavy acceleration, so if you floor it and boost comes on quickly and the EEC hasn't changed to open loop yet it will mean a blowen head gasket. With NA tuning there really isn't a huge deal, you will loose some drivability and won't get maximum power but you can tune it this way cheaply, buyt when it comes to forced induction too many things need to be changes to make the engine reliable and drivable.

Even with the Tweecer that gives me full control over the EEC, it is still a hard job to get a good and safe tune with boost. I have had to change all the fuel, timing and load maps, injector and MAF slopes, IAC rate, open/closed loop triggers and a number of other functions to get a decent and safe tune.
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:28 pm 
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and usally you need to go to a bigger fuel system with F/I, so the std ecu isnt set foe that... IMO, go for a aftermarket ecu. THey cost a bit, but in the long run are cheeper. YOu can get away with alot more then with a std ecu ans it is safer, like EDXR8 said

with F/I, tuning is way important and if the tune is s**t, you either have wasted money on your turbo gear or you'll blow something up.

my 2c

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:15 am 
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You can set timming at say 20* and pull spout wire and timing stays at 20* Or fit a MSD spark retard, it can be set to retard set timing as boost comes on..Wolf , Microtech would be easier..EMS, Haltech for alittle more $$...

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:13 pm 
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I mucked around with the EEC to see what it could handle after turboing my EA... results for my set up were basically massive lean out at 3psi regardless of engine load, and serious detonation in a split second after it hit 3psi. I retarded the dizzy about 6 deg but it just added lag off the mark. I was going to try a boost regulated fuel reg ( malpassi old faithfull) but changed to a Wolf as I couldnt be a*** with the EEC anymore.
If you read the "Wake up ute..." articles in Zoom a few years back, they got around 200k@w from the EEC with a chip, bigger injectors, big fuel pump... so you can retain the eec, but get a programable ecu, it'll give you far more tuning flexabillity
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm 
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CHEF wrote:
I mucked around with the EEC to see what it could handle after turboing my EA... results for my set up were basically massive lean out at 3psi regardless of engine load, and serious detonation in a split second after it hit 3psi. I retarded the dizzy about 6 deg but it just added lag off the mark. I was going to try a boost regulated fuel reg ( malpassi old faithfull) but changed to a Wolf as I couldnt be a*** with the EEC anymore.
If you read the "Wake up ute..." articles in Zoom a few years back, they got around 200k@w from the EEC with a chip, bigger injectors, big fuel pump... so you can retain the eec, but get a programable ecu, it'll give you far more tuning flexabillity


Yeah you will get that if you don't edit the EEC, but unfortunately the edits for the I6 EEC are still probably a while off. The lean area is caused by the EEC holding in closed loop, this is done for fuel economy but is a huge problem for forced induction. Even a rising rate reg doesn't help this because they usually don't start kicking in to above 3 or 4 psi.

BTW, with an edit, the EEC IV & V are easily comparable with, and often better IMO than, most aftermarket systems. But when it comes to forced induction you need full tunability either through an edit (if compatible with your EEC) or by using aftermarket computers.
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:39 pm 
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couldnt have said it better myself

 

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:48 pm 
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yeah, aftermarket ecu is the only way to go... its cool to just fiddle with the maps as you drive and slowly improve them
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