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Options for boost retard (LPG) 

 

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 Post subject: Options for boost retard (LPG)
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:13 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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hey guys. i've searched all fordmods.com on this topic already and i've seen quite a few recomendations on aftermarket ignitions or ECUs to achieve this but i'm after something cheap.

i'm going to have a go at turbo'ing an XF on LPG and i'm doing it all on a budget thats tighter than a fish's a*** so i need cheapo/backyard options for boost retard because i just found out today that an MSD 6BTM is gonna cost $650. the car isn't going to be a daily driver so i thought maybe i could retard the timing as far as possible and disconnect the vacuum advance so it'll prolly run s**t down low but will hopefully be the right timing up high (on boost), will this work?

any other suggestions, no matter how crazy...

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:10 pm 
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Vaccum advance does nothing for power. It is only designed to help ecnomy and driveabilty at cruise/part throttle. Vaccum advance only occurs funnily enough when vaccum is present, normally at least 10"Hg or higher.

Lock off the dissy mechanical advance. Advance the initial to at least 18 deg or what idles the smoothest but still cranks over. Ideal would be about 20-24 deg which may require bypassing the ignition circuit whilist cranking then turning it on to start.

Another option is to look at the Jaycar Ignition controller, I think its less than $100. You may be able to get to work like a boost retard.
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:09 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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this should be documented, "Backyard turbo install :D " ahah add a custom spray job 2 :D

 

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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:18 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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thanks bert. sounds cheap so i'm up for it. i reckon i'll be tuning it all by ear and using the seat-of-my-pants-o-meter to get it running until i can get it to a dyno to actually find out what timing i have.

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:56 pm 
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have a look at my turbo LPG XF
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3211

an XE dizzy recurved will work... with a few mods.
cheers
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:48 am 
Getting Side Ways
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so the xd/xe dizzy would have points wouldnt it? then just get it recurved (by a shop i spoze) to retard or stop advancing as revs come up?

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:04 am 
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this one may help a bit more...
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3375

the xe dizzy's can get a dual stage diagphram that retards timing under boost...
cheers
(what turbo are you thinking of using???)
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:18 am 
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(im still trying to teach myself about turbos so excuse the noob-ness) i'm hopefully gonna get my mate VL turbo which is a T3 exhaust and T4 compressor i think (its the stock one) and i think this should be good coz it looks in fairly good condition, suits a similar size engine and i'm prolly gonna get it cheap.

i read most of your 18pg thread on xfalcon, spack-pilot and it had some really good info :D

just a note on timings. on an N/A engine the timing starts at point X then advances with both mechanical (revs) and vacuum (throttle) to reach about 24 degrees (???). so when turbo-ing the timing starts at x (same point ?) but then does it advance from this point while under boost (but just not advance as much as N/A) or does it actually go more retarded from this point (at any time?)

slabz

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:30 am 
Getting Side Ways
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and don't forget this is going to be a cheapo job so dont even mention MSD (how much does it cost to get a dizzy recurved or have the dual stage diagphram installed). also my XF is/was a carby model 85 (pre cat ;)) so would that be an "early" XF and feature the "good" dizzy?

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:59 pm 
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ring performance ignition in VIC, 03 9872 3644, they can do you a regraphed dizzy with vac advance/retard, that will work plenty well enough as long as you know roughly how much boost you are going to run, the comp of the engine, and fuel type, so they can get the correct ammount of boost retard to suit your application, if you plan on toying with boost levels think about getting a more adjustable setup.

 

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2V 351T, 732rwhp@15psi on LPG.

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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:49 pm 
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my MSD cost me 250 (second hand ebay) so it isnt much more than a recurved dizzy plus the dual stage diagphram, considering the benifits in ability to toy with boost levels...
advance is good when not under boost mine advances before boost then retards a bit when boosting i think i end up with 18degrees total but am unsure of that.
sorry about the length of my threads but i started where you are now and looked for as much info as i could...
good luck with it and let us know how you go...
cheers
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:36 am 
Getting Side Ways
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thanks guys. i dont know how much boost i'm going to run yet, i dont even know which turbo i'm gonna get coz my mate is keeping his VL one :(

i'm doing this all on the cheap and its only gonna be a hack track (drift) car so i might just disable all advance and set it to 18 degrees all the time. then when i find out how much boost i'm gonna run, then get a proper one made.

ur thread is a wealth of info spack-pilot, thanks.

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:25 pm 
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well i started where you are but i dont have anyone close to me that knows what i needed to know so i asked a lot of questions and got a lot of answers the guys on this forum and Xfalcon are great and i am sure they will all help as much as they can...
an RX7 turbo (hitachi 18S-2S) is what i am using but they are not huge and have their limits... (unfortunately) but they are cheap and work quite well... also they have an internal gate if you want cheap then thats the way to go external gates can become very expensive plus internal makes the manifold a little easier
what manifold will you be using... or are you making/having one made ???
what gas setup are you gonna use??? i would highly recommend using an IMPCO VFF-30 lock off as the solenoid type will lean out at higher revs (3500rpm plus) on any sort of boost, atleast in my experience they do.
jump on Ebay and you will find some great bargains.
El-Cheapo intercoolers and BOV's as well as some other goodies
what gearbox have you got??? and diff???
cheers
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:39 pm 
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another option is to use delta max a aussie made ignition controller cost only $350 new.
http://www.delta-digital.com.au/

 

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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:53 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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spack-pilot wrote:
well i started where you are but i dont have anyone close to me that knows what i needed to know so i asked a lot of questions and got a lot of answers the guys on this forum and Xfalcon are great and i am sure they will all help as much as they can...
an RX7 turbo (hitachi 18S-2S) is what i am using but they are not huge and have their limits... (unfortunately) but they are cheap and work quite well... also they have an internal gate if you want cheap then thats the way to go external gates can become very expensive plus internal makes the manifold a little easier
what manifold will you be using... or are you making/having one made ???
what gas setup are you gonna use??? i would highly recommend using an IMPCO VFF-30 lock off as the solenoid type will lean out at higher revs (3500rpm plus) on any sort of boost, atleast in my experience they do.
jump on Ebay and you will find some great bargains.
El-Cheapo intercoolers and BOV's as well as some other goodies
what gearbox have you got??? and diff???
cheers


this VG30 turbo i'm looking at is internally gated (screw going external for my first one..ur so right about price and ease). i'll make my own manifold up, no probs there. i dont really know about the gas system yet. currently my XF has a real POS system, Star-Gas ( :roll: ) converter and an AMOS mixer that looks like a footprint that goes inside the aircleaner (its carby atm) but i wanna get the EFI manifold and TB (will an EBII manifold or EF broadband manifold fit onto a crossflow??) and this means i need a new mixer and i was just thinking one of those crap restrictive rings if i can get one but a venturi (i think) one that doesnt offer restriction, like impco ones would be sweet (any1 got one for sale for cheap)

 

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EBII 4.0L GLi | T5 | 3.27 Spool | POD | KKK K27 Turbo | 600x300x76 FMIC | 40mm Wastegate (dead) | RPD Stg1 Cam | B&M Launch Control | Thermos | 3" Dump | Twin 2.25" Zorst | 197kw@3500rpm, 7psi LEAN!

To Come: Hydraulic Handbrake | Coilover Springs | Fuel Pump | Microtech MT8 | 455cc Injectors

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