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5.4l back together no spark 

 

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 Post subject: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:01 pm 
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hello ,after some thoughts and advice please.
the run down .....
just got the 5.4l back together after topend reco and full timing replacment .
it wont start : (starter cranks, fuel to the rail but alas no spark ( new coils).
battery was put in backwards by mistake at some stage to lock it, was dark and the terminals were oppisite to the flat battery to the new battery :oops: dunkunt i know..
so i have checked and triple checked the ckp,cmp's,o2's,iat ,throttle,tps,hts ect are all plugged in .
timing was verified and done with cover off .
crank wheel was on properly, before the sump went on i checked the ckp was lined up with it .
checked every fuse in car and under bonnet with a multimeter.
found fan 2 blown and replaced it.
auto electrician says alternator wont stop it from starting and cant bench test it cause its got 3 wires he can only test 2 .
am i right in believing that if its not the ckp its the ecu fried ?
is there some other part i should be checking?
how can i check the ecu ? i have a elm interface but havent used it / unsure on procedure to use it.
thanks for listening
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:29 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Ride: 2006 BF Mk1 XR8

Location: Sydney
NSW, Australia

Without another ECU, im not really sure how you'd test it aside from getting someone with a proper car scanner to do live data checks (if theres any live data for the coil firing, i don't think there is, i know theres data for injector dwell/etc).

Most scanners will have actuation tests too and should be able to do individual coil fire tests (ie they'll be able to make any nominated coil fire with the scanner). I know the good Snapon scanner and Gscan scanners can do coil (and injector).

Otherwise i think theres a few places you can send your ECU off too and get it tested, but they aren't cheap and will still charge you if the ECU is fine

Do the injectors fire? There might be fuel there but if theres no injector pulse then that narrows it down a little (put a noid light in one of the injector plugs, or get a test light, make sure theres power to the injector on one wire, then switch the test light clamp to the positive bat terminal and see if the other wire pulses earth on/off while cranking (it may be the other way around, constant earth w/ power pulse but pretty sure it'll be an earth pulse)

If theres no injector pulse, but on a your dash your getting RPM's (or Crank/cam position and rpm data on a scanners live data), then its non of the position sensors playing up (and as you said it should all be aligned right), aside from managing to break all the coil/injector wires, very well could be ECU

Off the top of my head (don't quote me though)

BA/BF 5.4 Boss 260 alternators only need Ignition(Battery in the test bench) and Warning light - Third terminal is a dummy (Or something to that effect, simple alternators, not computer controlled).

Boss 290+ (FPV's/FG XR8), got no idea if they're the same or if they changed to computer controlled

Think all 6's BF and after went computer controlled on the alternator too

but yeah the auto elecs right, alternator won't stop it from starting, if the reg is blown, won't charge, if the Rectifier is blown, probably won't charge or may charge slightly depending on if any of the diodes survived (if the rectifier is shorted, it'll cause a current drain on the battery, if your battery keeps going flat then thats probably why, either that if it they're dead shorted it'll keep blowing fuses)

Either way pop open the fuse box next to the battery, pull out the only white plug in there (thats the harness for the alternator regulator) and disconnect the white lead (think its white) from the fuse box post (one that runs up to the alternator). That'll just make the alternator a dead spinning weight, completely disconnected

Sorry can't be much more help than that :oops:
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:14 pm 
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thanks for reply v8
as a whim i will disconnect the alternator to check because i have personally seen a car get shorted ,which killed the alternator ,same battery started said car with different alternator. true story but on an ef.
.
i didnt cotton on the ckp gave rpms so cheers for reminding me that.

ive heard even another ecu needs to be programmed to the car so it would be real dollars anyway hmmm.
anyone know where to send it ?ford?
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:17 pm 
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just to clarify to anyone who need know its a ba 5.4l 3v sohc
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:21 pm 
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update
*the tacho doesnt move when cranked
* i have done a diagnostic with the laptop and it says no fault codes,is reading all the sensors live
*no rpm are being communicated to laptop either
*it also says 1 piston is advanced 10' is this right ? or was i delusional when i did the timing.
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
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*from looking at other dianostic screenshots the 10' advance is normal
*ckp is flashing .3v should be .5v-1v
so i am going to replace the ckp on friday just incase.
maybe i over tightend the crankbolt.
would bad timing prevent spark and fuel?
mystro babble :
spoke to ford for qoute .
they reckon,
i would have got the timing wrong because its impossible with out cam holders ect and want
7x$119 to just to verify the timing (cover off).plus tow
another 3x 119$ to put it right IF its wrong .
which i dont believe it is if i did i would spend max 2.5 hours pulling it apart to recheck .
ford also reckon heads cant be skimmed and reused ,they asked me how the inlet manifold lined up .
they said i may have got sensors round the wrong way, sensors only fit/bolt/plug one way and wires dont reach from one side of the engine to the other .
cam sensors could have been mixed up yet they have exact same part number .
anyhow i will post timing photo here aswell soon dinners ready .
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:06 pm 
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passenger chain Image
Image
cant find drivers side pics but i put it on the r arrow 1000% sure
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:10 pm 
Oompa Loompa
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Ride: 2006 BF Mk1 XR8

Location: Sydney
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Sounds like you have the crank signal but the ECU isn't seeing it for some reason.

Which is why live data RPM's read 0 and the dash reads 0, all comes off the crank sensor (or it may be a blend of the crank and cam, not 100% familiar with the 3v motor, i was thinking it was a boss 260, really familiar with those :P, Standard diagnosing of things is the same from car to car though). Does it have live data for the cam sensor (if its even got one?),

Basically without that crank signal your dead in the water, thats what tells the computer where the pistons are so it knows when to inject fuel and fire the spark, if it doesn't have that signal, it'll just do nothing and throw out fault codes.

As far as i know all the 5.4ltr motors don't have the ability to run on just the cam sensor like some other motors can (although in an extreme limp home mode, they'll still run), though they'll run without the cam sensor signal (again in a limp mode).

I'd really be tracing that crank signal.

See if you've got it at the pin where it actually enters the computer (try unplugging/plugging in the ECU a few times, wiggle the plug/harness around, plenty of times i've seen pins on ECU plugs "loose" enough tension to really screw things up, i'm guessing you may have a had it, or another major plug unplugged during that rebuild, might be the source of the problem), if you've got it into the ECU, the pins are tight and its still not seeing it, it's probably the ECU (Try sticking a scope on the sensor if you have one, some multimeters are just too slow to keep up and will give false readings, though when checking any "wave" pattern, multimeter on AC voltage will give you an average)

And....i'm not sure on whether not the engine computers need to be programed, i know the ICC/BEM has to be programmed/linked to the car if changed (most auto elecs with a good scanner can do that btw), didn't think the ECU needed to be as all the security stuff is through the BEM, don't quote me though :P

other than that, im outta ideas, leaning toward ECU though
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:21 am 
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thanks again ,
#the 3v has 2 cam position sensors one for each .
*the ecu was unplugged to get the harness a bit out of the way to remove the passenger head.
i will have to drill the rivet out to have a better look ,the plug clips on to the ecu as you know . but i will drill out the rivet and recheck it .
#the old boy said same that .3v was an average on the digi meter probably to slow .
ahwell if it aint the crank sensor ive sunk another $54 into it least it will be new : ).
the saga continues...
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:09 pm 
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bit of research and
#the cmp's tell her when to inject and the ckp tells her when to spark .
if the engine light stays on while cranking plus no rpm on the dash the pcm(ecu) isnt seeing and/ or reading ckp signal.
*engine light stays on whilst cranking.
babble:i dunno why its not throwing codes .maybe the pcm is catcus der fred
ckp is ordered from ford and be here tomorow.
looking around for a PCM what ive been refering to as an ecu :oops:
power train control module engine control unit i say tomato you say tomato :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:36 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Hey mate, been reading with interest to see the outcome.
Sorry I can't offer any advice as I wouldn't have a idea why it won't start.

 

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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:16 pm 
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cheers bennyd your cool
update
#contacted EFI SPARES at raymond terrace they TEST PCM's via injectronics in melbourne $155
which i think is quite reasonable.injectronics dont deal with the public normally i rang them first :wink:

#*replacment ecus need to be reprogrammed for security so car will start ,while they are there they change the vin update software and check things like wheel size ,cruise control .im unsure on the $cost of that at this stage

babble : efi spares fellow from what he can gather from my 5 min call
thinks its the pcm faulty from the battery polarity being reversed.
he didnt know i was ringing to get a quote to test my pcm .
within the first 2 sentances said .i dont like you put battery in backwards you need to have your pcm tested.
i trust these guys as ive used them in the past and for a little shop they really do know all.
stayed tuned...
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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Ride: ba fairmont ghia 3vm

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update babble:
missus picked up the ckp from ford .
now this is from the parts department and a different ford dealer mind you
they told her that she should get it towed there they will be able to diagnose it in 20mins.including a faulty ecu .
if it wont start they believe there will be codes a plenty .
also confirmed a new pcm Has to be programmed by ford .
aparently ckp and cmps are exactly the same part (different area functions).b.s i had a look and they are different.
so after new ckp and checkings .
im thinking nrma cheap tow to ford ,diagnostic and go from there . its a little more than getting the ecu tested but i get a bit more and if it aint the ecu saves me wasting more money and time

Last edited by mystrogotbanned on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5.4l back together no spark
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:47 pm 
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*new ckp made NO difference :x
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