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Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit 

 

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 Post subject: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Hi folks,

Well today I took the car for it's first spin after being rebuilt and fitted with the new cam/heads/intake/ignition.

First off it feels very bogged down until about 1500rpm, like absolutely nothing would happen, then after that it would start to gain some power but not much. figured out it was retarded, so bumped the timing up a little, Goes much better now however It still doesn't feel like it's all there.

Fuel pressure is set at 38/39psi with vac line D/C at idle. The injectors I'm using are http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-9593-AA302/

Revs take a long time to drop between gears or when sitting. Have adjusted the idle screw and also the tps. Next I will look at the ICS.

My question is how do I work out the timing, obviously it's meant to be around 34-36 total advance, but what value should it be at the balancer/timing marker when using the timing light at idle in diagnostic mode?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:33 pm 
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Have you recaled the EEC for the 24lb injectors?
Stock timing is 30 so make it 32 or so.
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:15 pm 
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XR9UTE wrote:
Have you recaled the EEC for the 24lb injectors?
Stock timing is 30 so make it 32 or so.



Am running the EB GT ECU, so caled for the 24lb already.

Bumped the timing up, at the balancer on the timing light it's at 15. Which would make it about 34 total??

It's better mannered now, but smells like fuel and just has no guts to it. Like no power or torque at all, and it hesitates and judders while driving down the road.

Idle has got a bit worse, it's quite rough (apart from the lump) like it's missing or something.



Could the AU TPS have anything to do with this? I'm running the AU TPS with the E series wiring, it reads .98v key on/engine off.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:08 am 
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You won't get away with just running the EB GT EEC. It's going to need a complete custom tune. And even then, it's not going to feel all that flash under 2500rpm.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:50 am 
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It needs to be 30 on the balancer not 15. thats retarded to hell.
Have you got the correct MAF?
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:11 am 
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Check maf compatibility ??
I think that EEC requires 19Lb Maf ??? Calibration ..
Could be why it's running rich ...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:40 am 
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GT's/Sprints have 24's ebxr.
However those new type 24's don't actually behave just like the originals either. May just be able to get away with it if the correct Cobra 70mm MAF is with it though?
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:53 am 
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XR9UTE wrote:
It needs to be 30 on the balancer not 15. thats retarded to hell.
Have you got the correct MAF?


OK, so when the car is in diagnostic mode, it needs to be 30 (0r 34 with 98 fuel?) at the balancer?

I've got an EB/EL GT MAF.

EBXR8380 wrote:
Check maf compatibility ??
I think that EEC requires 19Lb Maf ??? Calibration ..
Could be why it's running rich ...


EEC is caled for 24's and I've got the matching MAF for it too. Just thinking if it's not getting enough spark to burn all the fuel.

XR9UTE wrote:
GT's/Sprints have 24's ebxr.
However those new type 24's don't actually behave just like the originals either. May just be able to get away with it if the correct Cobra 70mm MAF is with it though?


Yea, I've been doing some reading on these injectors, apparently they are meant to be used at around 43.5psi pressure? I've currently got it set at 38/39, but if it's over fueling, 43psi isn't going to help is it?

And Yes, it's got the Cobra/ E GT MAF to match the EEC.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:39 pm 
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30deg is stock so you could run some more with 98. I find 32-33 to be good.
According to this http://www.fordracingparts.com/download ... aptors.pdf they are flowed at 39psi so, they should be right. They will behave better than the original 24's and so may create slight control problems which is likely what Chad was referring to about a recal. Maybe you have another base engine problem like a vac leak or something? How did the cam degree up?
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:05 pm 
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XR9UTE wrote:
30deg is stock so you could run some more with 98. I find 32-33 to be good.
According to this http://www.fordracingparts.com/download ... aptors.pdf they are flowed at 39psi so, they should be right. They will behave better than the original 24's and so may create slight control problems which is likely what Chad was referring to about a recal. Maybe you have another base engine problem like a vac leak or something? How did the cam degree up?


Gotcha. It just says on the fact sheet for them that they flow 24lb/hr at 43.5psi.

I've also got a Pertronix TFI moduled installed, could this be any problem?

Thought I might have had a vac leak, but I've checked pretty much everything I can. I used Loctite aviation sealer on all the VAC line threads, is this bad and should I pull them out to replace with Teflon tape?

Here's a small clip, vac at idle is terrible, and you can also see near the end when I go to rev it, it does a little knock or miss and hesitates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqhw4kkd ... e=youtu.be

This pic shows where the dizzy is currently sitting. (two cast marks are aligned)

 

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:42 pm 
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That link doesn't work.
You may want to reconfirm with summit what those injectors are rated at?
Pertronix TFI could be a problem but it shouldn't be.
Liquid sealer is fine.
The dizzy posi is meaningless if it's a tooth out.
As long as you've got about 32deg intial your spark should be fine.
You don't mention how the cam degreed up?
Have you done a self test?
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Ok. I'll re check the distributor, it may be a tooth out as I put it at 1/TDC when I dropped it in but can't remember if it slid down perfectly or not.

So, when I put the car into diagnostic mode, it will rev up, then rev down, as it's on the rev down this is when I adjust it to 32deg?

Not sure how the cam degreed, the engine builder never mentioned anything about it. I will have to give him a call tomorrow and find out. How do I do a self test?

Try this link, it's an unlisted youtube vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqhw4kkdXxY

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:16 pm 
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What I'm saying is; it doesn't matter where the dizzy is(except for clearance of the TFI and lead placement etc) as long your timing is correct.
You have a couple of minutes to set your timing when in diag mode. Do it when the revs are stable.
For a self test; Do the same thing you did to start Diag mode but also hook the negative lead of a multimeter to the 5th pin across on the top edge of the diag connector and the positive lead to 12volts. Turn the key on and count the pulses. There are plenty of descriptions of this including in the workshop manual.
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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:38 pm 
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XR9UTE wrote:
What I'm saying is; it doesn't matter where the dizzy is(except for clearance of the TFI and lead placement etc) as long your timing is correct.
You have a couple of minutes to set your timing when in diag mode. Do it when the revs are stable.
For a self test; Do the same thing you did to start Diag mode but also hook the negative lead of a multimeter to the 5th pin across on the top edge of the diag connector and the positive lead to 12volts. Turn the key on and count the pulses. There are plenty of descriptions of this including in the workshop manual.


OK, thanks Pete. Just went out to re check everything and it looks like I may have put it out quite a bit, as I got to 20deg timing but ran out of room to adjust the dizzy, the TFI was facing straight ahead!. In fact now that I think about it, I may have put the dizzy in while at TDC in the same position it was in when I took it out before the engine came out (if that makes sense). Which would mean it's out of place A LOT!

I also found that when the timing got to 20 the engine vacuum immediately went from 9 to about 16.

Silly me :oops:

 

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 Post subject: Re: Advance/Retard Problems, TFS Top End Kit
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Yeah I managed to get a look at that video finally and noticed how low the vac was...that'll do it.
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