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Fairmont Ghia 5.0L 

 

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 Post subject: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Hey,

So I have got myself an ED Fairmont Ghia 5.0L, I have been trying to find a sticky or thread for the main things you can do to the 302W to gain power but am having no luck.

I have only worked on the six in the past and would love some ideas on what I should start doing to this car to get to around 200rwkw.

Cheers

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:15 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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What you ask for is long overdue on this site. Just need a few windsor owners to start creating threads to help others out and pester our moderators to make them into sticky threads.

Generally speaking:

- The inlet manifold and heads on these motors are junk, thats right, junk. Plan on replacing the heads and inlet manifold for the ones off an AU V8, whether it be a Fairlane motor or one out of an XR8. With your standard EECIV ECU and a good exhaust system, you will find that you will be near the 200kw mark. There are plenty of aftermarket solutions for the heads and inlet manifold. Go to summitracing.com and have a browse under the Ford 5.0L or 302 etc to get an idea on what's available.

- For 200rwkw, bigger throttle body such as one off an AU V8, maybe some port work on the AU heads or get some good aftermarket heads, larger injectors - AU 24lbers, again for availability or pick some online. Also, a custom tune such as tweecer or moates J3 or the local J3 with tunerpro rt etc will get you towards your target.

- Cam.

In a nutshell:

- Heads. GT40P minimum.
- Inlet manifold. AU Explorer or Edelbrock, Trickflow etc
- Cam. These motors have roller cams. Popular choices are Crane, although they folded. Crow are another that gets a mention. Trickflow, Comp and Ford Racing/FMS.
- Fuel. Injectors and MAF. Remember to get your ECU tuned when you change injectors and MAF as you risk overfuelling or detonation.
- Extractors and exhaust.
- Money. Plenty of it.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Cheers for that, looks like I have something to spend my cash on for a while :)

The car already has extractors and exhaust but I am going to change it for a better one, something with a bit more sound. I think I'll take on the intake after that and work my way down.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Yes, the heads, cam and manifold are woeful to the say the least. Turf them.
But I am skeptical of anyone reaching 200rwkw with GT40P's on a 5L. If you want a guaranteed 200rwkw+ on your 5L then you will need a minimum of aftermarket alloy heads along of course with an appropriate cam, intake, TB, injectors and custom tune.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:21 pm 
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I dont see why you wouldnt make 200rwkw out of GT40p's?? They are a great factory head, with a bit of port work, they can yeild great results. Take a look a timmeh's build thread, he has used all genuine ford parts and makes 196rwkw, with a bettet exahust, he would def make over 200 at the rears..and another example is 5L on AFF- I think he makes around 187rwkw, with just a tune and CAI...dont be so quick to write them off, and the price difference between GT40p's and some nice alloys is quite large! :roll: not all people can go out and buy nice new shiny things. My 2 cents anyway!

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:53 pm 
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I am aware of Timmeh's build and his manual trans brings him a lot closer to 200rwkw than many other people have ever been able to, however, I believe his build is the exception rather than the rule. Also having the manual trans means a gain of maybe 10 - 15kw over an auto trans too.
As for a stock 5L HO motor ( if that's what it was ) getting even close to 200rwkw with just a CAI and a tune, I'm not sure I can believe that, especially when dynos consistently differ from eachother.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:04 pm 
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An interesting topic, and one i've been thinking about, if i keep my Xr8 i will be needing more power, that's for sure, as i was thinking about a turbo setup on my Eb Ghia, but if i sell it, i will have to work the Xr8. Trouble is it has a duel fuel setup & a mod chip in the ECU, so i don't really know what has been done, or where to start...... It does still run a HO manifold, so i guess that would be the first thing to change?

I guess i need to get it on a dyno & see what power it has, already has pacemakers & a big exhaust, impco 425, mod chip, possibly head work as well. The Xr8 is a 5 speed, so that helps with RWKW a bit & a lot with the fun factor.......

Has anyone thought about forced induction to get to 200rwkw?

* Edit *

I just pulled this from the capa website:
Ford V8 Kits for the EB-AU 5.0-5.4L Engine
Powerdyne EB-ED-EF-EL-AU Inc.Water Injection Stage1 8psi 255 ex $ 6,319.00
Vortech, V-2 Quiet Inc.Water Injection Stage2 10~13psi 300 ex $ 7,995.00

That seems pretty steep to get that level of power, but they are emissions tested, and i imagine a ecu chip, larger injectors & so on are included to achieve that power level.

I guess a set of Gt40p heads, then working them, a new cam, injectors, manifold, CAI, J3 mod chip & so on would still add up to a good $3-4k.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:21 am 
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A rough estimate of the parts mentioned in this thread - but not including exhaust work;

GT40P heads ( S/H ) ~ $500+

Camshaft ( regrind ) ~ $150
( billet ) ~ $400 - $550

GT40 style intake manifold ~ $300+

TB ( new ) ~ $200+
( S/H ) ~ $100+

Fuel Inj ( S/H ) ~ $150+
( ultrasonic cleaning ) ~ $100+

Roller Rockers ( new ) ~ $500+

Valvetrain ( new ) ~ $300+

Aftermarket ECU ~ approx $300 - $2000 depending on what you choose

Dyno time ~ $150+ p/h

plus gaskets, timing chain, balancer and all sorts of minor s**t you end up having to buy or deal with as you pull apart your engine...

Basically, start forking out at least $3,000 and expect to pay thousands more.


For anyone not too sure about which ECU to use - take your time deciding and researching all of them as this will cost you money to change over and retune if you are unhappy with its performance.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:27 am 
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Vic wrote:
Yes, the heads, cam and manifold are woeful to the say the least. Turf them.
But I am skeptical of anyone reaching 200rwkw with GT40P's on a 5L. If you want a guaranteed 200rwkw+ on your 5L then you will need a minimum of aftermarket alloy heads along of course with an appropriate cam, intake, TB, injectors and custom tune.


GT40P heads are more than capable of reaching well beyond 200rwkW. Some calculation using port flow figures to flywheel HP will help.

0.257 x intake port airflow x cylinder = HP potential

So for GT40P heads which flow 195cfm @ 0.500" lift we get

0.257 x 195 x 8 = 401HP @ flywheel

401HP x 0.745 = 299kW @ flywheel

Driveline losses will steal about 15-20% of this leaving 254-239rwkW.

Using the AU3 XR8 220kW (flywheel which is about 187-176rwkW) engine as a guide to camshaft selection. The 050 figures were 206/212 with around 0.485" lift using a 1.72 ratio roller rocker. So a cam with an intake duration around 215-220 @ 050 and lift around 0.500-0.530" on 114 LSA will raise output above the 200rwkW while keeping the car completely driveable. A re-grind of the factory profile is all that's required (that's what Crow did for the AU2 & AU3 XR8 cams, re-ground Explorer cams) but definitely run 1.7 ratio rockers so that the base circle doesn't need to be reduced as much.

24lb injectors will be at their theoretical limit at 206-194rwkW assuming 85% operating duty cycle and 39.15psi across the injector. Either increase fuel pressure or go with a 30lb injector (best as you have scope for further increases in the future).

Explorer/Cobra intake good enough for 222-209rwkW

70mm MAF also good enough for 222-209rwkW

70mm TB is plenty

The factory ecu will be plenty good enough to support all this, but will need a dyno developed custom tune on a J3 chip.

This combo shouldn't cost the earth. I would expect around $2k in parts. Plus the tune (another $500?).

And just some food for thought. Stock unported E7TE heads flow 157cfm @ 0.500". This gives a range of 204-192rwkW. So with good camshaft selection it is feasible to get very close to the 200rwkW target with stock factory heads.

Finally for those of you that like Crane Cams gear, they began grinding cams again in January. Hopefully their other product lines will follow - I bought up everything I could out of USA last year and am running low on some items.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:40 am 
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So my guess on $$ for the amount of power wasn't all that far off. Boosting to get that sort of power looks like it's twice the price. But there is nothing like forced induction.

I wonder if 93 mustang turbo manifolds (aftermarket v8 stuff) would have half a chance fitting in the engine bay of a 93-98 falcon v8?

Cheers

ToranaGuy

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:45 am 
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I agree i have a stock eb h.o motor and i put my bro's modified ba xr8 to shame, i did get my turbo changed to the comp wheel and housings more suited to the motor but at just 7psi i was handing his a*** to him.

Cost for that would be around the 5g mark bar the tune, i suppose you could look for second hand parts and if you were handy with welding you could rig up your own exhaust manifolds making it cheaper.
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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:53 pm 
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RAPTOR_XR8 wrote:
I agree i have a stock eb h.o motor and i put my bro's modified ba xr8 to shame, i did get my turbo changed to the comp wheel and housings more suited to the motor but at just 7psi i was handing his a*** to him.

Cost for that would be around the 5g mark bar the tune, i suppose you could look for second hand parts and if you were handy with welding you could rig up your own exhaust manifolds making it cheaper.

Just wondering what does yours wake now with that set up?

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:14 pm 
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Because of a massive oil leak i havent put it on the dyno, i run 24lb injectors with an fmu so what ever it made that fuel system was enough for it.
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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Interesting. I was thinking about maybe getting extractor flanges from pacemaker, to make some turbo manifolds with, just a single turbo setup, A t70 type, ebay fmic cooler, pipe work, oil & water lines, a reasonable bov, and a J3 chip & tune, probably cost about $2500 if i make the manifolds up....

Food for thought.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

 

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 Post subject: Re: Fairmont Ghia 5.0L
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:04 pm 
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xafalcon wrote:
snip


You seem to be quite knowledgable on this xafalcon.

If I was to expect about $500 for a CAPA tune, how much would I be looking at for labour for changing the cam out and installing 1.7 rockers? And with a warmish cam and a manual box I would be expecting about 190rwkw, yes?

I already have the mods listed below aswell as a CAPA flash tuner box & 24lb injectors sitting in my garage.

Trying to budget and hoard parts :D :D

 

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