Fordmods Logo

MAFLESS TUNE 

 

Page 2 of 2 [ 28 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2

 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:10 am 
EFI Guru
Offline

Age: 52

Posts: 4289

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 28 images

Ride: 351 Vogue,XH 5.0,'17 5.0 Stang

Location: Perth
WA, Australia

rob82 wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
67RCE wrote:
xcabbi wrote:
What he meant was that you can't do a mafless tune on the factory EB-AU V8 ecu.

Actually, you can. Cam on AFF has a TPS based tune in his 347 AU done by ChipTorque


Which means it's a fudged cal....you may aswell stick a carby on it!



There is actually a TPS based map within all EECIV and EECV that the ECU will revert to when the MAF is removed - only a matter of tuning that map.

Not exactly a carby - this type of tuning is used on V8 supercars, only the model that the EEC uses is much much better than a Motec.


That's right, it's called a MAF failure mode map. Trouble is, when in this mode a whole host of things are disabled...like for example closed loop fuel control. So in effect you've thrown away all the benefits of the EEC and for what?
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:55 pm 
Fordmods Newbie
Offline

Posts: 6

Joined: 15th Feb 2011

Location: Brisvegas
QLD, Australia

XR9UTE wrote:
rob82 wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
67RCE wrote:
xcabbi wrote:
What he meant was that you can't do a mafless tune on the factory EB-AU V8 ecu.

Actually, you can. Cam on AFF has a TPS based tune in his 347 AU done by ChipTorque


Which means it's a fudged cal....you may aswell stick a carby on it!



There is actually a TPS based map within all EECIV and EECV that the ECU will revert to when the MAF is removed - only a matter of tuning that map.

Not exactly a carby - this type of tuning is used on V8 supercars, only the model that the EEC uses is much much better than a Motec.


That's right, it's called a MAF failure mode map. Trouble is, when in this mode a whole host of things are disabled...like for example closed loop fuel control. So in effect you've thrown away all the benefits of the EEC and for what?



Not true - closed loop control works as per normal. Spark maps are retained as per maf tuning and desired AFR maps still work as well. Absolutely no draw backs at all if the map is well tuned.
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:35 am 
Parts Gopher
Offline

Age: 48

Posts: 59

Joined: 13th Feb 2011

Ride: ba turbo taxi

Location: melbourne
VIC, Australia

XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:44 am 
Parts Gopher
Offline

Age: 48

Posts: 59

Joined: 13th Feb 2011

Ride: ba turbo taxi

Location: melbourne
VIC, Australia

rob82 wrote:
There is actually a TPS based map within all EECIV and EECV that the ECU will revert to when the MAF is removed - only a matter of tuning that map.

Quote:
yes true!


Not exactly a carby - this type of tuning is used on V8 supercars, only the model that the EEC uses is much much better than a Motec.
Quote:
big big statement!


there are 2 other ways to remove the maf!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:07 am 
Parts Gopher
Offline

Age: 48

Posts: 59

Joined: 13th Feb 2011

Ride: ba turbo taxi

Location: melbourne
VIC, Australia

rob82 wrote:

Not true - closed loop control works as per normal. Spark maps are retained as per maf tuning and desired AFR maps still work as well. Absolutely no draw backs at all if the map is well tuned.


are you sure? think you better clarify or rethink your statement!

ill assume your from chip talk! if so you should have a brain and as such ill agree you can tune with tps or with a map sensor! your method is either ingenious and your doing something else as well to achieve this! thats fine i have not wasted my time on these ecu's but ill run some tests on my nc 5.0 soon!

i'm of the belief once in mafless / map mode you infact do loose some control but ill test that before i say it as fact!

as you are possibly using winols or similar its a matter of definitions you have available to you as to strategy changes! or better again the developers software from ford!

there is a simple way to achieve map or mafless using sniper, tunerpro etc. that does retain all factory strategies and allows full ford table resolution!

i also believe even without o2 it is shiite loads better than carby and dizzy!

op if supercharged you need temp comps taken from after the charger or coolers - so buyer beware with mafless or draw through maf!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:28 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Posts: 6432

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 6 images

!

 

_________________

5.6L of carbon footprint.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:44 am 
Getting Side Ways
Offline
User avatar

Age: 34

Posts: 4307

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 9 images

Ride: EF Falcon XT-T

Location: Mornington Peninsula
VIC, Australia

oh boy i'm looking forward to XR9UTE's reply :D

 

_________________

FALCN6 - EF GLi Turbo, 20" Rims, Air Bag Suspension, Straight LPG, 225rwkw
DTHWGN - EA GL Wagon, LTD Interior, Satin Black, 5.0, Turbo
RACER - EF Futura , 5.0, 5 Speed
PROJECT - 83 Thunderbird, Lowered, 18" Billet Wheels
DAILY - BA Fairmont Ghia 5.4 3V

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:41 am 
EFI Guru
Offline

Age: 52

Posts: 4289

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 28 images

Ride: 351 Vogue,XH 5.0,'17 5.0 Stang

Location: Perth
WA, Australia

phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!


In Failure mode load calcs are disabled and an inferred load from TP is used. I suppose you could say that is still load but I think the accuracy and resolution is dodgy. This lack of accuracy is what I mean when I say 3d maps being reverted.
Yes ok V8 supercars may use alpha-n tuning but I think road cars actually need a more wide ranging and therefore more accurate calibration.

Rob, when I tested this in the '90's(on a car that the owner broke the hotwire at the dyno when he poked a screwdriver in it :roll: ) we found using the MAF failure map resulted in closed loop appearing to work(switching occurred) but short term fuel trimming didn't work so foreground routine fuel calcs are disabled. The Ford strategy also suggests Managed Air Fuel calculation is disabled. Unless you found a software switch to achieve it? Or created a custom one?

Phase auto's dude, Is there another way to disable MAF? This is interesting I'd like to hear it and please let us know the results of your tests on your NC. Supoib stuff!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:28 pm 
Fordmods Newbie
Offline

Posts: 6

Joined: 15th Feb 2011

Location: Brisvegas
QLD, Australia

XR9UTE wrote:
phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!


In Failure mode load calcs are disabled and an inferred load from TP is used. I suppose you could say that is still load but I think the accuracy and resolution is dodgy. This lack of accuracy is what I mean when I say 3d maps being reverted.
Yes ok V8 supercars may use alpha-n tuning but I think road cars actually need a more wide ranging and therefore more accurate calibration.

Rob, when I tested this in the '90's(on a car that the owner broke the hotwire at the dyno when he poked a screwdriver in it :roll: ) we found using the MAF failure map resulted in closed loop appearing to work(switching occurred) but short term fuel trimming didn't work so foreground routine fuel calcs are disabled. The Ford strategy also suggests Managed Air Fuel calculation is disabled. Unless you found a software switch to achieve it? Or created a custom one?

Phase auto's dude, Is there another way to disable MAF? This is interesting I'd like to hear it and please let us know the results of your tests on your NC. Supoib stuff!




I can 100% guarantee that LTFT and STFT maps operate as per normal in TPS mode on an AU in MAF failure mode. Cant say that the LTFT cells are disabled in MAF failure mode on earlier models as I cant get that data from them. But they definately toggle the 02 sensor which would suggest there is closed loop activity.

The map's axis's are also present if you have the know how to find them.

I was suprised at the level of control achieved on my first mafless AU auto with around 230@50 Sq cam I tuned. I thought that there would be stalling issues as you pulled the car into gear due to the higer load however I the fuel trim strategies by AU are so fast that it just trims around it.

I think its definately worth a look if you need to go down that route.

Would I recommend MAFLESS tuning - NO!!! Can I tell my customers that - NO!!! Hence the need! Is a MAF the best way of metering Air into an engine - %100 YES!!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:08 pm 
EFI Guru
Offline

Age: 52

Posts: 4289

Joined: 5th Nov 2004

Gallery: 28 images

Ride: 351 Vogue,XH 5.0,'17 5.0 Stang

Location: Perth
WA, Australia

That makes sense Rob. AU EECV is a very powerful piece and I don't have as much experience with these. I started using an AU EECV with my 5.0 XG van but ended up selling that before I got too far.
As for telling a customer he can't have MAFless why not? Is it more a case of they want it at all costs or what?
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:55 pm 
Parts Gopher
Offline

Age: 48

Posts: 59

Joined: 13th Feb 2011

Ride: ba turbo taxi

Location: melbourne
VIC, Australia

XR9UTE wrote:
phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!


In Failure mode load calcs are disabled and an inferred load from TP is used. I suppose you could say that is still load but I think the accuracy and resolution is dodgy. This lack of accuracy is what I mean when I say 3d maps being reverted.
Yes ok V8 supercars may use alpha-n tuning but I think road cars actually need a more wide ranging and therefore more accurate calibration.

Quote:
its actually measured load from what i have seen!and i would say on a cammed car tps is the way to go would you not? as to the op's s/c application i would concur and say a carby would be as good as tps! lol its not but tps is pretty crude with varying boost!


Rob, when I tested this in the '90's(on a car that the owner broke the hotwire at the dyno when he poked a screwdriver in it :roll: ) we found using the MAF failure map resulted in closed loop appearing to work(switching occurred) but short term fuel trimming didn't work so foreground routine fuel calcs are disabled. The Ford strategy also suggests Managed Air Fuel calculation is disabled. Unless you found a software switch to achieve it? Or created a custom one?

Quote:
i was under the assumption your highlighted remark is correct! and yes to software or switch as i said earlier to him too!


Phase auto's dude, Is there another way to disable MAF? This is interesting I'd like to hear it and please let us know the results of your tests on your NC. Supoib stuff!


well i don't disable the maf i replace it! so the ecu thinks its still got a maf and you tune accordingly!
yes as you know its not as simple as that but any more info and its proprietary / confidential!

edit! ohh with the nc i was only going to check mafless tune for closed loop only coz i doubt it! i think mafless is going to be open loop as you describe!
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:35 pm 
Fordmods Newbie
Offline

Posts: 6

Joined: 15th Feb 2011

Location: Brisvegas
QLD, Australia

phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!


In Failure mode load calcs are disabled and an inferred load from TP is used. I suppose you could say that is still load but I think the accuracy and resolution is dodgy. This lack of accuracy is what I mean when I say 3d maps being reverted.
Yes ok V8 supercars may use alpha-n tuning but I think road cars actually need a more wide ranging and therefore more accurate calibration.

Quote:
its actually measured load from what i have seen!and i would say on a cammed car tps is the way to go would you not? as to the op's s/c application i would concur and say a carby would be as good as tps! lol its not but tps is pretty crude with varying boost!


Rob, when I tested this in the '90's(on a car that the owner broke the hotwire at the dyno when he poked a screwdriver in it :roll: ) we found using the MAF failure map resulted in closed loop appearing to work(switching occurred) but short term fuel trimming didn't work so foreground routine fuel calcs are disabled. The Ford strategy also suggests Managed Air Fuel calculation is disabled. Unless you found a software switch to achieve it? Or created a custom one?

Quote:
i was under the assumption your highlighted remark is correct! and yes to software or switch as i said earlier to him too!


Phase auto's dude, Is there another way to disable MAF? This is interesting I'd like to hear it and please let us know the results of your tests on your NC. Supoib stuff!


well i don't disable the maf i replace it! so the ecu thinks its still got a maf and you tune accordingly!
yes as you know its not as simple as that but any more info and its proprietary / confidential!

edit! ohh with the nc i was only going to check mafless tune for closed loop only coz i doubt it! i think mafless is going to be open loop as you describe!



Plugging in a linear voltage map sensor and fiddling the MAF transfer table??
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: MAFLESS TUNE
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:29 pm 
Parts Gopher
Offline

Age: 48

Posts: 59

Joined: 13th Feb 2011

Ride: ba turbo taxi

Location: melbourne
VIC, Australia

rob82 wrote:
phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
phase autos wrote:
XR9UTE wrote:
The drawbacks are; there is no way to sense load. If there's no load sensing the EEC cannot know what fuel or spark is needed for a given load. Effectively resulting in 3D maps being reverted to a single curve rather like, in the case of spark, an old mechanical advance distributor.


please explain the high lighted remarks!


In Failure mode load calcs are disabled and an inferred load from TP is used. I suppose you could say that is still load but I think the accuracy and resolution is dodgy. This lack of accuracy is what I mean when I say 3d maps being reverted.
Yes ok V8 supercars may use alpha-n tuning but I think road cars actually need a more wide ranging and therefore more accurate calibration.

Quote:
its actually measured load from what i have seen!and i would say on a cammed car tps is the way to go would you not? as to the op's s/c application i would concur and say a carby would be as good as tps! lol its not but tps is pretty crude with varying boost!


Rob, when I tested this in the '90's(on a car that the owner broke the hotwire at the dyno when he poked a screwdriver in it :roll: ) we found using the MAF failure map resulted in closed loop appearing to work(switching occurred) but short term fuel trimming didn't work so foreground routine fuel calcs are disabled. The Ford strategy also suggests Managed Air Fuel calculation is disabled. Unless you found a software switch to achieve it? Or created a custom one?

Quote:
i was under the assumption your highlighted remark is correct! and yes to software or switch as i said earlier to him too!


Phase auto's dude, Is there another way to disable MAF? This is interesting I'd like to hear it and please let us know the results of your tests on your NC. Supoib stuff!


well i don't disable the maf i replace it! so the ecu thinks its still got a maf and you tune accordingly!
yes as you know its not as simple as that but any more info and its proprietary / confidential!

edit! ohh with the nc i was only going to check mafless tune for closed loop only coz i doubt it! i think mafless is going to be open loop as you describe!



Plugging in a linear voltage map sensor and fiddling the MAF transfer table??


in very basic terms yes but not quite as straight forward! as i mentioned above!@

can also use 3bar map sensors too on the early ones now!

do tps / map on nissan's as well!
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:
Sort by  
 Page 2 of 2  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

 

 

It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:07 am All times are UTC + 11 hours

 

 

(c)2014 Total Web Solutions Australia - Australian Web Hosting and Domain Names