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Windsor misfiring: suggestions? 

 

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 Post subject: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:47 am 
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OK, I need your thoughts on this problem. When cold, the 5.0 is having quite abrupt misfires, spluttering up the street under light load, clearing, spluttering again at any throttle setting. After it warms up only a minute or two later, the problem seems to stop with only one or two quick misfires here and there.

1. Car sometimes needs 2 or 3 attempts to fire when cold. It's getting fuel OK as it almost floods. It's almost definitely an ignition problem.

2. No backfiring through airbox- not a lean fuel condition. This rules out MAF....maybe?

3. Car has new leads, plugs, dizzy cap/rotor, coil, fuel/air filters, alternator AND TFI module in the last 6 months!

What can cause a very abrupt interruption to the distributor/plugs? I've experienced a faulty spark plug before and this is a much 'cleaner' misfire, if that makes sense. How is the coil triggered? Temp. related TFI module issues, maybe?

Cheers in advance, Mike



I

 

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:40 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Check or replace things like air / coolant temp sensors..
Seeing its when it's cold.. Check TPS that its under -1v @ idle and +4 @ wot..
Check for air leaks between heads and maf.. Check if PCV is working or popped out??
New 02 sensors if they are over 100,000 klrs..

Could also be water, crud in fuel tank if you have filled with E10..
Not that it's E10's fault.. It cleans your tank if there's moisture, varnish from
previous fuels.. Seems to happen in colder time of the year?? I guess due to condensation ??

Check the EGR coolant if has one ?? Isn't leaking into manifold, engine ?? Due to internal corrosion..

 

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Have you done a self test?
How do you know it floods? Have you tested fuel flow and pressure?
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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:27 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Location: Adelaide
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Thanks guys. I found that the dizzy clamp bolt was loose allowing it to move a little, but still no luck.

EGR has been bypassed for years. Yeah it's corroded a little, might check gaskets. I do have the intake temp sender relocated to the intake tube after MAF which is a little loose- will re-seal.

o2 sensors quite new. No E10 ever used.

I've been through the low fuel pressure saga before, this seems to behave like an electrical fault. There is no backfiring through airbox (lean condition?) or black smoke from exhaust (rich?). Never been able to self test after ChipTorque reflashed the ECU 8 or 9 years ago. Will try again.

Thanks, Mike

 

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Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:40 am 
Getting Side Ways
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I had what sounds to be a similar problem. I ended up getting a cheap set of leads and changed out a bank at a time. It turned out to be one of the leads on the passenger side. It didn't always fault though, which was a pita. I didn't end up isolating the one, just took all 4 back to get checked out as I had them made up not too long beforehand. I checked/changed EVERYTHING before I looked at the leads as they were so new. Just one of the many painful experiences we have to go through at times!

Although you have stuff in there that is relatively new, stilll check it out.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:23 am 
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Chuck the s**t away.
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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:11 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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I haven' had much time to check the car yet, but now when cold is getting difficult to start. Yes, she fuels up and blows smoke when it finally fires, so it's getting plenty of juice. Actually, after starting it again tonight when warm from the drive home, it was misfiring as well, dammit.

One important thing I forgot to mention: when it's coughing and spluttering, the tacho needle flickers around in time with the misfiring. Does that point to a particular issue guys?

Mike

 

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Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Just because it fuels up and blows smoke when it finally fires doesn't mean it has enough fuel...it just means the fuel that was injected hasn't been ignited properly.
That tacho flicker suggests a problem with ignition electrical on the secondary side but it could be caused by a number of other things on the primary side. Have you checked the output from the hall effect in the dizzy? Check also that the suppression cap on the coil hasn't shorted.
Tap your main power relay with a spanner while it's running to be sure it's not dropping out momentarily.
Take the chip out, run the engine without it and then do a self test.
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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:28 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EF Ghia 5.0

Location: Adelaide
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Thanks mate. I've just been tinkering with the car with mixed results.

Cleaned MAF hotwires and various connectors. Reset TPS to 0.98V. Repaired small crack in inlet tube, idle now smoother but the car still takes quite a few cranks to get started. I'll do the other items you suggested tomorrow.

I might install a new fuel filter, but it doesn't seem to be running lean.

My ECU doesn't have a removable chip- apparently it has been reflashed after problems with the original chip. It was mirror-backed with the ChipTorque logo on it and as making the car go haywire! My car is one of the first Windsors that Lachlan played with. I has not idled properly or started without throttle for 7 or 8 years now.... :roll:

Thanks again guys, Mike

 

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EF Ghia 5.0 - XR8 in a tuxedo....classy, low and loud

Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:40 pm 
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V8 Ghia Mike wrote:
My ECU doesn't have a removable chip- apparently it has been reflashed after problems with the original chip. It was mirror-backed with the ChipTorque logo on it and as making the car go haywire! My car is one of the first Windsors that Lachlan played with. I has not idled properly or started without throttle for 7 or 8 years now.... :roll:

Thanks again guys, Mike


Ahh for f**k sake....I'd demand a new EEC from him!
I can't believe you've put up with it for 7 or 8 years!?!
What sort of leads have you got?
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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:30 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Yeah, good point!

Leads, not sure, but a reasonable set from REPCO, if that's possible! :)

Mike

 

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EF Ghia 5.0 - XR8 in a tuxedo....classy, low and loud

Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:33 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Age: 48

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Ride: EF Ghia 5.0

Location: Adelaide
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XR9UTE wrote:
Just because it fuels up and blows smoke when it finally fires doesn't mean it has enough fuel...it just means the fuel that was injected hasn't been ignited properly.
That tacho flicker suggests a problem with ignition electrical on the secondary side but it could be caused by a number of other things on the primary side. Have you checked the output from the hall effect in the dizzy? Check also that the suppression cap on the coil hasn't shorted.
Tap your main power relay with a spanner while it's running to be sure it's not dropping out momentarily.
Take the chip out, run the engine without it and then do a self test.


I also cleaned up contacts in the dizzy cap, swapped out rotor and tightened up ignition lead connectors at the plugs.

More questions. :oops:

How do I check the hall effect and suppressor? I'm OK with a multimeter, but not sure what wires to hook onto.

Main power relay location- under the coolant reservoir? What about the main fuses right next to it? The big 100 amp one has always been stuck in there!

Cheers, Mike

 

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EF Ghia 5.0 - XR8 in a tuxedo....classy, low and loud

Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:51 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Age: 48

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Ride: EF Ghia 5.0

Location: Adelaide
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Minor update. It's still playing up!

I swapped out fuel pump relay, cleaned up lots of relay connections, swapped each plug lead with a new one to eliminate faults and tested suppressor (no short between plug terminal and the casing- OK?).

The tacho needle is still flickering when car is started and when misfiring occurs. Car is also very hard to start.

How do I check Hall Effect sensor? Which one is the main power relay?

Thanks, Mike

 

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EF Ghia 5.0 - XR8 in a tuxedo....classy, low and loud

Bordeaux Purple, Tickford kit, slammed, 18" BA XR8's, EL Ghia chrome, full leather, Pioneer audio, C&C, ABS, LSD, Crane cam, GT40P heads, high flow cats, Genie extractors, lots of woodgrain, chrome and interior lights!

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:26 pm 
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whoops my bad.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Windsor misfiring: suggestions?
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Main power relay is the brown one next to the green fuel pump one.
You can check the hall effect with a multimeter but it's not ideal.
Measure the volts across the PIP pin(Top pin in the TFI module connector or look up the pin number up in your workshop manual if you want to do it at the EEC connector) and gnd while cranking you should get between 3 and 6 volts.
Try checking your distributor gear and the cam drive gear also.
You should actually check your fuel pressure and flow properly.
Is your EEC a 4DEG?
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