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SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs... 

 

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 Post subject: SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs...
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Hi Guys,


It has been ages since I have visited this topic - I have done searches online (here, other boards etc) and have been told varying information from mechanics too.

Currently, my EL has Nolathane through-out the rear end - these were done at the same time as fitting Koni Yellows with Pedders Low springs (just a tad lower than standard Tickford height AFAICT).

This was done ~5+ years ago, however the car was not on daily duties for this time - in fact, sat garaged up for easily 12 + months as well.

NVH was notably increased and I'm at the point where I've had enough of the harsh 'feel every bump' ride that I get now.

**My question is** : Will changing bushes give me back some ride comfort in say going to a SuperPro **still** teamed with the Koni Yellows and Pedders springs or will going to standard rubber bushes be a 'reduced NVH' alternative?

I'm trying to figure out the combination that still gives me 'some' performance, but still retain an acceptable amount of comfort in the form of reduced NVH. Whether it be go with all rubber bushings but perhaps upgrade swaybars etc...or do I have to start looking at different spring / shock combinations as well?

I had it in my mind that Koni Yellows + Pedders springs + SuperPro would give me what I want...however a reputable mech I've spoken to says the change to SuperPro bushings (from Nolathane) are unlikely to reduce existing NVH.

Would like to hear from others who have experience with similar setups...I'm running 17" wheels and on occasion 18", but would not go any bigger (if that makes any difference!).

I'm happy with Tickford or only very slightly lower ride height - nothing crazy, as I still need to go over speed-bumps and the like in a semi-frequent commute.


Thanks,
Steve

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:16 am 
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I changed my upper and lower trailing arms from standard short length ones with superpro bushes to aftermarket pedders ones with rubber and it made no difference in ride quality. From what I've read, springs dictate a fair amount of the ride quality, and the swaybars are the first thing one should go for if they want to stiffen the car up and keep it flatter under load.

I intend on going for some dobinson progressive rate springs and bilstein shocks after what I've gathered all over the net.

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:25 am 
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don't bother with superpro it's all junk! ive had a part snap on me (part that holds the spring to the shock tower up the top not sure what its called) 200k's from home, had to baby it the whole way back, not mention the suspension is as noisy as @#%* especially in cold mornings

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:10 am 
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I ran a full chassis of superpro for over 2 years and it was silent, it just needs to be greased well. Only had to re-grease the swaybar mounts as the grease would seep out over about 9 months.

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:17 am 
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TyLeR3397 wrote:
I changed my upper and lower trailing arms from standard short length ones with superpro bushes to aftermarket pedders ones with rubber and it made no difference in ride quality. From what I've read, springs dictate a fair amount of the ride quality, and the swaybars are the first thing one should go for if they want to stiffen the car up and keep it flatter under load.

I intend on going for some dobinson progressive rate springs and bilstein shocks after what I've gathered all over the net.


Yours being an EL Ghia - do you happen to know if it had the optional Tickford suspension? As for springs - you're the second one to make mention of them being the most prevalent in NVH 'real feel'. I have however had a reputable source state bushes, shocks, springs (in that order) as being most NVH impacting to least.

I'd like to retain the Koni yellows - but I'm open to try different springs...after speaking to a Fulcrum Tech last night, he obviously pushed his product, but said that it would be a good idea to pay close attention to spring selection. Dobinson Comfort Lows are on the radar...but are they still available these days?

GTFORDMAN wrote:
don't bother with superpro it's all junk! ive had a part snap on me (part that holds the spring to the shock tower up the top not sure what its called) 200k's from home, had to baby it the whole way back, not mention the suspension is as noisy as @#%* especially in cold mornings


Wow, that's one of the few negatives I've heard about SuperPro. Was the spring seated properly? As much as I can appreciate the situation it left you in...was it deemed 100% at fault by the SuperPro product?. Was it the front or the rear?

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:23 am 
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I would put superpro at the top of the list for quality,
as for firmness of the bush I would say superpro are middle field, no where near as hard as nolathane but firmer than std rubber..
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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:56 pm 
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yea the product itself was at fault, replaced it with a standard mount, never had another problem (just worried about the other side)

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:30 pm 
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+1 for the good quality of Superpro bushes - they are tough and Troy is correct about where their firmness lies. Sudden bumps are more noticeable with superpro, compared to std rubber, this I noticed on my red wagon, and it retained std springs. Same deal now they are transferred over to my XR6 wagon.
I think a while back somebody suggested keeping the front lower arm bushes rubber, and the other bushes superpro. I'd suggest making the radius rod front and rear bushes superpro - try it yourself with the radius rod disconnected from the lower arm - heaps of flex in the front with rubber.

Bit surprised you still have the EL Ghia Steve.

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:19 pm 
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snap0964 wrote:
+1 for the good quality of Superpro bushes - they are tough and Troy is correct about where their firmness lies. Sudden bumps are more noticeable with superpro, compared to std rubber, this I noticed on my red wagon, and it retained std springs. Same deal now they are transferred over to my XR6 wagon.


I'd assume this to be the case...but will be coming from Nolathane, so if anything I hope there is decreased NVH (emphasis on the harshness!) by going to the SuperPro products.

snap0964 wrote:
I think a while back somebody suggested keeping the front lower arm bushes rubber, and the other bushes superpro. I'd suggest making the radius rod front and rear bushes superpro - try it yourself with the radius rod disconnected from the lower arm - heaps of flex in the front with rubber.


Funny you mention that - I did speak to Dobinsons in Dandenong today to see what was available - spring wise. I mentioned that I wanted a progressive spring in a Comfort Low...they had a HD version which I was told would give a firmer ride, however teamed with SuperPro and my adjustable Koni Yellows, it may be a better combo than my current Pedders / Nolathane bits. I've also read up on joolz' Dobinson spring upgrade from yonks ago which has inspired me to chase the Dobinson product over King.

Also discussed a mixture of bushes...some rubber and some SuperPro - he thought it was a good mix by having radius rod bushes SuperPro and lower arm in rubber...I am leaning at doing this.

PS, The Dobinson progressive rate springs are only available for the rear...I'm not sure if they ever did fronts?

snap0964 wrote:
Bit surprised you still have the EL Ghia Steve.


Hey Ray - longtime! Yeah, still got the EL...can't come to terms with being rid of it, despite tinkering with a T2 TE50 of late.

Thanks again for the info guys!

Cheers,
Steve

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:34 pm 
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Yeah, I remember yours on my trip to Melb, along with Daniels Fairlane - the high series interiors just look so good, even over time.
I think it may've been Adrian who suggested the rubber bushes setup a long time ago. The front lower arm pivot bushes in the EF/EL's are huge compared to the EB/ED's - it may've been done for NVH.

One thing though the superpro bushes with front/rear whiteline swaybars transformed the wagon, even with std springs/shocks, winding roads were where it really showed the improvements.

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or Rubber Bushes...
Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:15 pm 
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snap0964 wrote:
Yeah, I remember yours on my trip to Melb, along with Daniels Fairlane - the high series interiors just look so good, even over time.

I think it may've been Adrian who suggested the rubber bushes setup a long time ago. The front lower arm pivot bushes in the EF/EL's are huge compared to the EB/ED's - it may've been done for NVH.

One thing though the superpro bushes with front/rear whiteline swaybars transformed the wagon, even with std springs/shocks, winding roads were where it really showed the improvements.


Good memory...I think you bought something off Adam in Wantirna South and popped in to see me whilst in the area - this was pre-Wagga AFD IIRC.

Mine may have had the LTD or FBT interior at the time...Daniel's Fairlane would either have been the NF Sportsman or his FBT...both very clean examples! Adrian did post something up about rubber in the lowers from a thread I read elsewhere - will double check.

May consider doing swaybars at some stage...but will most likely do things in increments to test NVH vs performance. Anyway, I'm off to buy some SuperPro radius rod bushes from Supercheap at clearance prices apparently - will see how much swearing is involved with getting them in (and the old nolathane out!) - they say fitment time 3.5 hours.

Will keep y'all posted :)

Thanks & Cheers,
Steve

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs...
Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 8:45 pm 
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Yeah, I think at the time Steve, Effalcon (john) had a parts car stored at your place.

It shouldn't be too hard to get nolathane out - tap out the crush tubes, then the bush.
Naturally, make sure the new bushes are lubed well, and unlike rubber, don't necessarily need to be tightened up at kerb weight.

For the lower front arm, fit the main pivot bush, Fit the radius rod bushes front and rear, and loosley mount the front radius rod to the k frame, and the lower arm, and swing the lower arm into position and fit the bolt.
You will be swearing if you fit the lower arm, and try to fit the radius rod to it, and to it's front mount.

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs...
Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:17 pm 
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Thanks again Ray.

Ok, so I've dropped the lower control arm from the K-frame and undone the front radius rod assembly (24mm nut and bolt FYI) to get the radius rod out. Now, looking at how the drivers side was done (I've only disassembled the passenger side as that's the knackered one...for now!). I'm starting to wonder if they were done properly the last time...

I say this because firstly there was NO crush tube to remove from the assembly and when I pack it all back together with the new SuperPro bushes, there is not enough 'meat' on the end of the radius rod for the nut to go back on and secure it to the K-Frame.

This is what I have on the radius rod going into the K-Frame on a side-on view starting right to left:

1) Washer
2) SuperPro Bush
3) SuperPro Bush
4) Washer
5) Metal Cap

Is this assembly correct? Hoping to get it all back together tonight if possible!

Thanks,
Steve

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs...
Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:55 pm 
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Just checking the workshop manual and it shows a different story to what I pulled out - can I presume this is correct?

 

 

Attachments:
Radius Rod Bush Assy.jpg
Radius Rod Bush Assy.jpg [ 119.05 KiB | Viewed 53 times ]

 

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 Post subject: Re: SuperPro or rubber / progressive or linear springs...
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:18 am 
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Yeah, it's been a long time, so my memory is a bit hazy.
I remember there was a quirk when doing the front radius rod bushes.

IIRC I fitted the front bush in the k frame, then the rear one, and with the radius rod on it's own pushed it through (so you could wiggle it around), with that large flat washer on the shaft.

I think it was a fiddle to get both bushes to butt up to each other whilst doing this, and I think the radius rod had a step on that front shaft that the rear washer sits over. I think the rubber setup didn't have a washer behind that rear bush.

I think I had enough threads on the front to just put the nut on, do it up to compress the bush for more threads, then undo and put the large round washer on and do it all up with the nut.

Your list looks okay - I don't think there were any crush tubes (except for the lower suspension arm radius rod bush) - normally new ones come with the bushes if they were needed. You'll know when you trial fit the new bushes on the arm whether they have a snug fit, or are loose needing a crush tube.

Once it's done up, you can wiggle the radius rod and see how much less flex compared to rubber there is - bearing in mind this arm is supposed to keep the lower suspension arm compliant.

dcstraight wrote:
Just checking the workshop manual and it shows a different story to what I pulled out - can I presume this is correct?
The EF/EL's are the same - except where the front radius rod comes out with that big nut, the K frame has an extra ring tack welded there to help bush compression, they can sometimes come adrift when taking out the front rubber bush.

 

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