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T5 not turning after rebuild 

 

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 Post subject: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:20 am 
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Here's a question for those who have experience in T5 gearbox rebuilds....

Has anyone had a problem with the input shaft locking up after a rebuild? Both shafts mesh together for a while, bind and move again with a bit of force. All of the gear teeth are in good condition and the bearings/synchros are new too. I'm 100% sure all the spacers, etc. are assembled in the right order.

Now that the box is in the car, the new starter and battery won't crank the engine even with the spark plugs out. Everything was working fine prior to the gearbox rebuild.

I can put the car in gear and neutral. In 5th gear, the motor should still turn a bit if you rock the vehicle. In this case, it doesn't turn over.

Would excess preload cause this to happen? There is zero forward/back movement in the input and output shafts (checked with a dial gauge as per the repair manual).

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:08 pm 
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So give us more to go on. As per usual with these types of threads, you have to spend pages finding out what was done, and what wasn't.
Was it free spinning before install? Tested in every gear selection before install?
Different gears/countergears/input shaft fitted?
What did you set preload at?

And so on . . .

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:15 pm 
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This is the same T5z box that I couldn't get the 5th gear off. I ended up cutting it off with a 1mm cutting wheel. Here's a summary of what's happened:

- The input and counter shafts turned OK prior to the rebuild but were sloppy because of badly worn bearings

- When I pulled it apart, the reverse idler, second and third gears had damage. Hence, they were replaced with ones from a Holden T5z box I bought. All the rest of the gears & shafts are original

- All the gears shifted smoothly after the rebuild, before and after the box was installed

- Prior to putting the tailhousing on, I rotated the shafts and there was a slight grab on the gears which I assumed was due to not soaking 1 or 2 of the synchros in ATF before assembly

- All of the bearings are new and were pressed and seated properly

- As a starting point, I reused the original shims to set the preload. Because there wasn't any movement, I didn't use any other shims. I assume they are the orignal factory shims and I didn't measure the output shaft movement without them. The car has done 207000 km

- I used the orignal shim on the countershaft bearing and there was zero movement. It rotated OK

- The new input bearing retainer was purchased from the US and is 7mm shorter than the original

- The spigot and throw out bearings are new

- The fluid in the box is ATF Dexron 3 and has the Nulon friction modifier added

I'm thinking of removing the box and tailshaft to see if the engine spins (with the bellhousing on). I was going to get Lube Mobile to have a look but this will be a waste of money if the gearbox needs to come out again.

EDIT: I was talking with another guy at work about this problem and he's wondering why the engine won't rotate when the clutch is pushed in.

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Beats me....sounds like too much bearing preload.....or mixed gears.....?????

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:54 pm 
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cjh wrote:
or mixed gears.....?????

my first thought was to ask are you 100% sure the ratios are the same?

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:36 pm 
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ranga83 wrote:
my first thought was to ask are you 100% sure the ratios are the same?

I counted the number of teeth on the replacement gears and they're the same. From reading through a number of articles, my understanding is that the parts inside the T5 can be interchanged (within the WC range).

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Shortshift wrote:
ranga83 wrote:
my first thought was to ask are you 100% sure the ratios are the same?

I counted the number of teeth on the replacement gears and they're the same. From reading through a number of articles, my understanding is that the parts inside the T5 can be interchanged (within the WC range).


BUT, what if the gear tooth angle is different...you know...the Helical cut angle.....?????....that could make it hard to rotate.....binding between teeth.
Just thinking out loud.

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:54 pm 
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I don't think you have much choice but pull the box out.

Select each gear and rotate the input shaft - if still binding, back off the input shaft cover bolts, and try again. This will tell you if you have too much preload.

Are you sure the tab on the reverse brake taper ring/synchro cone (the one the synchro ring mates against)was aligned when fitting the extension housing ??

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:44 pm 
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cjh wrote:
BUT, what if the gear tooth angle is different...you know...the Helical cut angle.....?????....that could make it hard to rotate.....binding between teeth.
Just thinking out loud.

Thanks, I considered that and did some more research. I read over some Holden forum threads and found that the V8 T5Zs in the Holdens and Fords have the same ratios. Some of the guys were using Ford T5 parts to rebuild the Holden gearboxes.

snap0964 wrote:
Are you sure the tab on the reverse brake taper ring/synchro cone (the one the synchro ring mates against)was aligned when fitting the extension housing ??

That was the first thing I noticed when putting the extension housing on. It didn't fit on easily so I worked out the tab should be between 11 & 2 to fit without force.

Well, after fighting to get the car up on ramps (because the trolley jack would go up high enough) we had some trouble getting the gear box out. The clutch had to be unbolted through the throwout lever opening. Turns out that the clutch plate centre had welded itself to the input bearing retainer. When we rotated the gearbox, the engine would turn. This explains why the engine wouldn't crank :roll:

When I installed the US input bearing retainer, I failed to notice that the aluminium housing protrudes more which in turn reduces the throwout bearing travel. :oops: The mild steel tube, that the throwout bearing slides on, is about 6mm longer and this reduced the clutch travel on the spline. So, I either get the US input retainer machined to the right dimensions or have the original retainer built up with bronze an machined.

If anyone is planning to buy the US input bearing retainer, you will need to machine it to the correct dimensions.

Now that the gearbox is out, I'll try I'll checking the gears as per snaps advice. I'm treating this as a learning curve as I haven't rebuilt a gearbox before. Hopefully, other people will avoid these mistakes if they try a rebuild.

 

 

Attachments:
US vs AU retainer.jpg
US vs AU retainer.jpg [ 224.66 KiB | Viewed 54 times ]

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:18 pm 
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I reshimmed the countershaft again. It seemed a bit tight, so I replaced the 135 thou shim with a 125 thou shim. It has no freeplay and spins easily. The mainshaft was rechecked with the dial gauge & no shims. The reading was 21.6 thou (0.55mm on the dial gauge). Hence, it's now shimmed to 23 thou instead of the 29 thou I had.

I've narrowed the mainshaft binding down to something to do with 1st gear. When the input bearing retainer is fitted and facing down, I rotate the mainshaft and notice that the rear outer bearing ring moves up and down. The 1st gear seems to bind in two places about 180 degrees apart. :(

Does this mean the mainshaft is not perfectly straight? There are no burrs or broken teeth on any of the gears.

To counter this, should I just reduce the shim thickness in the input bearing retainer?

 

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 Post subject: Re: T5 not turning after rebuild
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Well after two weeks of pulling the gearbox apart a dozen times, swapping gears and rechecking the assembly, I finally found the cause of the gears jamming. I contacted Paul Cangialosi on Facebook (the guy from 5speeds.com) and he was quite helpful answering questions. While looking closely at all the gear teeth, I noticed the ends of several teeth on the first gear were slightly bent. This may have happened when disassembling the gear train in the press, but I suspect they were damaged to start with.

The previous owners didn't look after the car and this was evident from the condition of the parts inside the gearbox.

To fix the problem, I grabbed my trusty Dremel and carefully ground off any bumps at the end of the teeth on first gear. Now the mainshaft turns without any resistance. :D

 

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