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Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In? 

 

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 Post subject: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:22 pm 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EF XR6 Wagon, AU2 XR6 VCT

Power: 148 rwkw

Location: Auckland
New Zealand

I just had an alignment done on my EF XR6 wagon and noticed afterwards that they had used the non-XR6 wagon specs. The only difference (that is adjustable) is the toe-in. The XR6 specs are 0 to 6 minutes of toe-in per side, for a total of 0 to 12 minutes toe in. The non-XR6 specs are 5 to 14 minutes of toe-in per side, for a total of 10 to 28 minutes toe in. They set it at 9 minutes of toe per side, for a total of 18 minutes - 6 minutes more than maximum spec for the XR6. Should I get it corrected?

I am running 235/45R17 Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 2 tyres on FTR alloys with the E-series offset.
Ride height is factory XR6.
Front shocks are KYB high-pressure gas.
The suspension bushings are still OK (mostly red Nolathane), but far from new - possibly even original equipment 318,000 kms ago.
Camber is neg 1 deg 18 min and 1 deg 30 min (in spec); Caster is 3 deg 36 min and 3 deg 48 min (in spec).
I don't do any circuit work, just a mix of local twisties and straights up to 80 km/h, with regular highway driving and occasional drag racing up to 150 km/h. I don't drive particularly fast, but I also don't slow down much for corners :twisted:

I am happy with the extra high speed stability and decreased oversteer, and can live with less crisp turn-in. But, if I leave the toe as is, will I end up with accelerated tyre wear on the outside shoulder? Is 6 minutes toe in over spec enough to make a difference?

Thanks for the help.

 

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95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA, QFM, KYB/Koni, AU block, ported EF head, SS Inductions, Territory intake, MLS gasket, milled, Franklin RH24B cam, Coby headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:55 pm 
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Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Pretty sure my ED which is really low is set at 2.5mm total toe, which guessing tire diameter and such gives me just over 14minutes... I also have loads of caster thanks to AU top arms... Trying to remember camber, one wheel might be 1 degree and the other is 1.25degrees, I had problems with 1.5degrees with 8" wide wheels with wear and wandering at 100km/hr... I get pretty much even tire wear with this but...

Have no idea why they say the XR needs less toe in...

The genuine ED manual I have says this about toe

Std suspension
1.5mm (9') min 4.5mm (27') max 3mm (18') preferred
Tickford suspension
0mm min 1.5mm max 0mm preferred
Sprint
1mm min 3mm max 2mm preferred...

Go figure... I'd reckon if it handles fine and you notice little extra tire wear then there wouldn't be an issue...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:33 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Ride: EF XR6 Wagon, AU2 XR6 VCT

Power: 148 rwkw

Location: Auckland
New Zealand

Thanks for that TimmyA. If I'm understanding it correctly, toe in is great for high-speed stability, but reduces the crispness of turn-in. Circuit cars often have toe out, making them corner quicker, but maybe making them a bit darty down the straights. Same principle as small planes having dihedral (wings angled slightly up), but fighter jets having anhedral (wings angled slightly down). Anhedral makes the jet naturally unstable (could not be flown without computerised stability control) but extremely manoeuvrable. I guess the XRs were set up with a bias toward handling, trading off a little stability.

I'm not overly concerned about losing a bit of turn-in performance. But the tyres are not cheap, so don't want to risk wearing out the outside edge in 10,000 kms when the rest of the tyre would be good for 30-40,000 kms. From the specs you quote, the ED and EF XR6 are similar. As 6 minutes is only 1 mm, it's probably not enough to worry about. And if you are getting even wear with the same toe in, it should be safe to leave it as is. Thanks for the help.

 

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95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA, QFM, KYB/Koni, AU block, ported EF head, SS Inductions, Territory intake, MLS gasket, milled, Franklin RH24B cam, Coby headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:41 am 
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Age: 28

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Ride: ED Falcon

Power: 133 rwkw

Location: Leeton
NSW, Australia

Yeah no worries...

Seems weird the sprint which would have similar tickford suspension runs nearly std toe...

That's my understanding of the as well... Everything works in together... Depending on the whole geometry of it you can add and take camber to counter the toe... Even the tire can change how the car handles... And the geometry that works on one car may not work on what looks like an identical car... I'll remember to check my tires which are just over 12 months old and see how they're going lately...

Cheers,
Tim

 

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93 Red ED 5spd Manual Build Thread

Performance: Complete AUII VCT Wiring & Power Train, Pacey Headers, 2.5" Exhaust, Exedy Clutch, DBA Rotors
Visuals: FG XR Wheel, XR Front, 17's, BA 5 Spd Shifter, BA Ghia Window Switches, NL Cluster
Tunes: 8" Pioneer Sub, JBL Speakers, Clarion Double DIN Headunit

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:17 am 
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The best thing suspensionwise I think you can do is add a 30mm front, and 20mm rear swaybar. I have that setup on my XH ute, and did on my red EL wagon - which used to go through windy roads a lot - the difference was remarkable. I think the extra flatness would help the front tyres a lot.
That setup I moved over to my EFXR6 wagon, same improvement.
As Tim says, keep a watch on your tyres - run your hand over the front outer edges, any scrubbing you'll feel - smooth one way, rough the other.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:48 am 
Getting Side Ways
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Posts: 836

Joined: 1st Apr 2005

Gallery: 4 images

Ride: EF XR6 Wagon, AU2 XR6 VCT

Power: 148 rwkw

Location: Auckland
New Zealand

snap0964 wrote:
The best thing suspensionwise I think you can do is add a 30mm front, and 20mm rear swaybar. I have that setup on my XH ute, and did on my red EL wagon - which used to go through windy roads a lot - the difference was remarkable. I think the extra flatness would help the front tyres a lot.
That setup I moved over to my EFXR6 wagon, same improvement.
As Tim says, keep a watch on your tyres - run your hand over the front outer edges, any scrubbing you'll feel - smooth one way, rough the other.


Good stuff! Thanks.

 

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95 EF XR6 wagon, 17" FTRs, DBA, QFM, KYB/Koni, AU block, ported EF head, SS Inductions, Territory intake, MLS gasket, milled, Franklin RH24B cam, Coby headers, no cat, Tickford 2.5", 2800rpm stall, J3 chip

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 Post subject: Re: Wheel Alignment EF - Too Much Toe-In?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:11 pm 
Technical Contributor
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Age: 53

Posts: 5589

Joined: 14th Jan 2005

Gallery: 10 images

Ride: 96 XH/97 EL

Location: South Coast
NSW, Australia

gearbox-suspension-brake-driveline-f4/whiteline-swaybar-for-ef-xr6-wagon-t122623.html sums it up pretty well.

 

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96 XH Longreach 'S': LPG, Alarm, 3.23:1 LSD, Cruise, Trip Comp, ABS, Power Windows, Mid Series Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl
97 EL Futura S/W: LPG, Alarm, LED int Lts, Trip Comp, F/Lane Dome Lt, Climate Ctrl, T5 Conversion

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