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Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby 

 

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 Post subject: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Hi guys,

Got a couple of questions for the j3 chip tuners and turbo boys out there.

First Question:
I just got my car back today from the dyno tuners after doing a turbo conversion. But I didn't hit my expected power figure of 250rwkw which is what I was aiming for. I had to be happy with 5psi at 202rwkw. Apparently the tuner didn't push the car any further due to receiving large amounts of "smoke" through the oil catch can and was worried about the bottom end letting go. Its a reconditioned XG ute engine which only has 60,000km's on it since being reconditioned. Apparently it only does this under full boost and won't do it at all at idle. Should I be concerned about this? Is this normal? or should I just go back and up the boost to about 9 - 10psi? The tuner seemed to think I needed to rebuild my bottom end or get an AU low km bottom end but was happy to up the boost if I gave him the nod of approval. The dipstick stayed in but I don't know how much blow by is acceptable and if it'd lead to smashed pistons if I pushed it any further or if I would just lose compression.

Second Question.
I am running a walbro GSS294 which apparently flows at 275lph along with 60lbs (650cc) siemens deka injectors with an au fuel rail with a BA XR6T fuel regulator on it.

The tuner said he was unable to get much more power due to the car leaning out. He described it as if maybe the hose had come off the fuel pump which connects it to the fuel rail. He said it was like it wasn't holding pressure. He recommended that I get a GSS341 fuel pump which later I found out flows even less at 255lph compared to my current 275lph one. He said most BAXR6T run these and they are good for around 300-400rwkw. I don't want to throw good money after bad on a lesser performing fuel pump and still have the same problem. I am 99.9% sure that these submersible fuel hose is on properly and the clamps are super tight, the hose was also new when I put it on. There are no fuel leaks anywhere also.
He said he upped the boost to see if it was going to make the power I was after and it got to 230rwkw at 4000rpm before he aborted the run due to leaning out.

Have I hooked something up incorrectly to cause these symptoms?? Where should I go from here?? What should I be checking for?? Apart from re buying parts and installing them I have no idea what to do.

I have run a T piece off the fuel reg to the BOV but I don't think this would cause any problems.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

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XG Ute. BBM conversion, EL ECU + J3 Chip, 3" Stainless Steel Intake Pipe, K&N Pod Filter, Wade 1673 Camshaft, Pacemaker extractors, 2.5 Inch Hi-Flow Cat, 2.5 Inch exhaust, Cab Extension, 18" FG GT Rims, resprayed in blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Hey guys,

Just found out after a heap of research that I belive I have got a fake walbro pump........ The fact that the pump is excessively noisy, came with photocopied instructions and didn't come with the genuine walbro installation kit for a specific model and doesn't hold pressure makes me believe this. So I have ordered a Walbro GSS341 from another hopefully reputable dealer on ebay who guarantees genuine item or money back so hopefully that will be sorted. Just kind of sucks to have to waste that money on the dyno tune due to someone else ripping me off.. The GSS341 is also a high pressure pump so it doesn't lose as much flow as a standard walbro hi flow pump under higher rail pressure. The tuner tells me that he uses these in all the BA and FG turbo's and they are good for around 350rwkw.

So that's all sorted.

Also from my post above, does anyone know how much blowby is to be expected from the bottom end after turboing? What is an acceptable level?

Cheers guys

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Mine have all been high km motors and all had plenty of blow-by. I just use a hose with a bolt in it over the dipstick tube or it shoots out over 15psi ish. I wouldn't be worried about it if it runs smooth and not oiling any plugs or anything. Ive always made good power even with the motor breathing heavy. Don't worry about smashing pistons there prity tuff, mostly caused from pinging so that's no issue if the tunes good and you don't suffer a lean out etc.

As for fuel related issues, id throw a fuel pressure gauge on it see if its actually dropping or if your just not commanding enough fuel via tune. Sucks about your fuel pump hopefully your genuine one does the trick, cheers. Good to here of another boosted falcon in Adelaide!
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Hey Turbo_Will,
Thanks for your reply mate because the way the tuner was speaking he was acting like the bottom end was just gonna let go as I had some smoke coming from my catch can. However he did say due to the fuel issues and then he got the blowby he didn't want to push it any furthur because soon as he starts to see a problem he just stops the tune there as he doesnt make a practice of blowing up cars on the dyno..... which is a good thing...

I have my catch can just plumbed up to the back rocker cover with a filter on it, so as it's not hooked up "properly" this might be why he is worried about the smoke.

I was under the impression that as long as my catch can wasn't filling up and my dipstick was staying in then it is all good. So i might go back there when my fuel pump is in and crank it up to about 9-10 psi and see what happens. From what you say it sounds like if you put more psi in u just get more blow by and it doesn't actually affect the bottom end letting go as in bend rods, smashed pistons etc. It would seem pointless to put in an AU bottom end and still get blowby when possibly this bottom end would be ok.

I'll check my catch can in a few weeks and make my decision from there :)

With the fuel pressure gauge, would that only drop pressure when the cars being put under load and the pump at its near max? or would it do it at idle? It may need to be done on the dyno I am thinking?

I am also getting a fair bit of a hesitation when I am cruising at low rpm and just lightly touch the accelerator. Under WOT its very smooth. Is this normal or possibly from a bad tune? I am finding myself having to keep the car in 4th gear when cruising as then when I am lightly on and off the pedal its a bit more smoother and does buck and hesitate as much. I am pretty sure the fuel pumps to blame as it is excessively loud and sounds like its about to let go, even though its a new one.

I'm sure you'll see me on the road as I from the northern suburbs as well. AFAIK I am the only blueprint XG getting around. Once I get this all sorted you might see me at the drags too :)

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:37 pm 
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You taking it to bruce, he seems on the ball prob just worried it was too lean. Yea the more boost/power your making the more blow by. I run two 1/2" breathers to a vented catch can. The way im thinking no point replacing motor till your 100% sure its rooted like oiling up a plug, low comp on a cyl or bad knock etc. Also bear in mind au motor has weaker rods than eseries but would still be ok for the 250rwkw your chasing.

You will probably find its dropping under load at higher revs/boost. Thinking about it it just seems weird your running lean on 60lb injectors @200rwkw with 98. When I had fuel pump issues a while back, fuel pressure was dropping under boost to 40psi with 20psi boost pressure and I still had enough fuel for over 15psi with 60lb ers on 98 j3.

Hestitation or flat spot could be fuel pressure related (lean), tune or something else like tps etc etc really should get yourself a wideband afr gauge so you can make sense of these issues.

Be good to see you have a crack at the drags once its sorted, keep us posted how you go.
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Hey mate.

Yeah I am taking it to Bruce, I am really impressed with him. He seems really switched on and as far as I can tell, he really knows what he is doing so I am more than happy to keep going there. My GSS341 fuel pump rocked up today so i will put that in this weekend and make an appointment to go back and see him. Apparently TI automotive have bought out Walbro so they don't come in Walbro boxes anymore... The chinese fake I had came in a Walbro box so I don't know what to think anymore. As long as it delivers the fuel I don't care lol. I am gonna change my fuel filter aswell, just incase thats blocked.

I changed how I hooked my catch can up today as I had oil leaking from it due to me being slack and not putting a hose clamp on there. Now I have a gutted out pcv hooked to once side, the hose from the back rocker cover hooked to the other side and the can has a filter on top. I have oil in there already and I am guessing that the can will be around half full when it comes to my 5000km service interval. Is this about right? How often are you emptying your catch can?

The wideband o2 sensor sounds like a great idea. Do you just hook that up to a AFR gauge similar to a boost gauge, or so you have to have the j3 programming software to be able to work it out?

At the moment I have a massive flat spot at 3000rpm in 3rd gear under boost. It feels as if it has run out of fuel! I'm not gonna do anymore spirited driving until I get the GSS341 fuel pump in and get it back to Bruces to confirm I have fuel pressure and I am not running lean anymore. I am going to also do a compression test as soon as I can to make sure all the cylinders are roughly the same.

With the 1.3MLS headgasket. Do you have any idea what compression I would be looking at. As far as I have researched as long as the numbers are within 10psi of each other then the bottom end is all good?

Also with the amount of blowby that you get, would you recommend not plumbing it back to your intake due to getting oil through the turbo? As I was thinking about doing this in the future to make my turbo conversion just that little bit more legal lol.

Cheers for all your help mate. I can't wait till I get it sorted...

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:27 am 
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No probs, Hmm mine dosnt fill the catch can much at all maybe 50mm in a couple of months, id be comp testing it see were its at, yea they should all be even if 5 are at 160psi and 1 is at 100psi you no you got a problem. Could just be your catch can is better designed inside to catch the oil, mine is just open inside and most of the vapours just vent out. Also Ive had up to 20psi difference in cyls and still run fine, when the motor was stripped the low cyl didn't have busted ring lands or anything just was a bit tired.

Na, wideband can be used stand alone, sensor goes in exh and power/earth.

At a rough guess around 150psi hot, when mine was decomp-ed it had low 100s. I would not be plumbing catch back to intake you will just end up with oil in the intake, leave it vent to atmosphere.
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:20 pm 
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Another thing to remember with the Walbro pumps is the difference between the High Pressure and Low Pressure ones. The LP ones flow more but may have issues with high rail pressure (boosted or FMU setups).

Cheers,
Jason
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:14 am 
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Thanks for your replies guys!!!

I think I may have over reacted with the amount of blowby. Now i have my catch can hooked up with the rear breather to the catch can, then from the top of the catch can I have a hose going into a spare car wash bottle in preparation of hooking it up to the intake to see if any oil was coming through. Currently no oil is going into the car wash bottle so I think I would be fairly safe hooking this up to the intake. When I had the breather filter on the catch can, u could see the oil vapour collecting in the filter and then leaking from it. Since I have the hose going into the car was bottle I have had no problems with oil at all. I haven't made up my mind yet about plumbing it into the intake but it has confirmed that my blowby isn't as bad as first thought. I still need to get a compression tester from somewhere first and do the compression test to see where I am. I am fairly confident in passing with flying colours :)

Jason, I think this may have been my problem with leaning out on the dyno. My WALBRO GSS294 fuel pump is not a high pressure fuel pump, the GSS341 I have just installed is. I am hoping this with fix the problem on the dyno. With the new fuel pump installed I notice no difference at all though with the running out of power at 3500rpm. However I guess it is all in the tune. Even though I am 99% sure I have the fuel lines hooked up the right way, I find myself wanting to get under the car and double checking just incase that is my problem. However I doubt the car would run if that was the case. I also replaced my fuel filter which was fairly dirty aswell. Bit concerning though that turbo_will reckons I could have made more power with stock fuel pump and fuel reg. :(

While I have you here Jason, I just want to confirm. You definitely don't need a rising rate FMU to with 60lbs injectors and a BAXR6T fuel reg in an AU rail do u??? I was thinking this might be the problem as when its on boost there is less pressure and therefore less fuel and running lean. I'm sure the tuner knows more than what I do but I really don't want to go back a third time to try to get this tune right... I rather get it done properly the 2nd time knowing he has everything he needs on the car already. So if I need additional equipment I am happy to get it in preparation.

I really appreciate your help guys, its kind of annoying spending all this money on your car and you can't boost it past 3500 rpm without bad things happening. It starts to feel like a waste of money :( Also my friggin vband clamp is leaking which gives me this annoying tick under load, I'll get to fixing that tomorrow. Kinda sucks when you have just had a whole new exhaust system put on 3 weeks ago. Hopefully a thin smear of muffler putty will do the trick.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:44 am 
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You have mentioned rear breather to catch can. What have you done with the PCV? The setup I'd run is a -10AN fitting in both rear breather and PCV to a catch can. Elimitate the PCV completely.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:21 am 
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Hi 67RCE, I did try the gutted PCV to catch can and rear breather to catch can with the vacuum point on the manifold blocked with a breather on the catch. I decided against it though because due to the location of the catch can you could see the oil vapour misting out from behind the headlights when they were on at night time. Also due to the oil having water vapour in it, it made the catch can gunk up with some whiteish crap. The breather filter I had on it may have been clogged but the oil vapour would also collect in the filter and then would occasionally drip oil from the catch can. Hooking the PCV straight to the catch can without gutting it would AFAIK be pointless because it wouldnt see vacuum and would remain closed.

I decided to do it this way because since the PCV is closed under boost and open at Vacuum and the fact that I may want to plumb it back into the intake, the less chance of oil and crap going through the turbo and intercooler, if it can go directly into the manifold and bypass this then thats great :) I don't think the pcv does any harm the way its set up from factory. I am pretty happy with the current setup and it seems to work quite well.

God knows why all the white crap collected in the catch can fittings with the gutted pcv going to the catch can, obviously there is a small amount of water vapour in the rocker cover. Or I got water in there from when I was degreasing around the catch can.

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:33 am 
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Saltez! wrote:
You definitely don't need a rising rate FMU to with 60lbs injectors and a BAXR6T fuel reg in an AU rail do u??? I was thinking this might be the problem as when its on boost there is less pressure and therefore less fuel and running lean.


Hi mate,

You definitely do not. With those injectors and rail pressure you should have heaps of fuel. If Bruce said the pressure was dropping then you must have had a pump, reg or leak issue. If you want to be sure, put a gauge on it before you go back.

The way to get more fuel in on boost is via super rich AFRs in the Fuel Stabilised Table. If there wasn't a pressure issue at all maybe Bruce forgot or didn't know about this table, but I'm pretty sure he would. If you're using one of my J3s I have no problem with Bruce ringing me for help.

Cheers,
Jason
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:12 am 
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Thanks for your reply Jason. I think Bruce might have been a bit under the pump on the day I had my car there so maybe it was a bit of both. He was telling me that the for some reason it was leaning out when it shouldn't and not responding properly, he was also worried about my custom coolant recovery system leaking as i had overfilled it and I was also getting a bit of blow by from the catch can. I think all three things together kind of put him off it. It's all good as long as I get it sorted next time. It may have been that non high pressure walbro pump too....

The only other thing I have touched is putting the BAXR6T fuel regulator in there but I don't see how you I could stuff the fuel pressure putting that in. It just removed the circlip, pulled out the old regulator and pushed in the new one. I did have to use a G clamp with very minor pressure with some thick cardboard on either side to push the the new regulator in as I couldnt force it in by hand. However the circlip went back on fine and it doesn't leak. I don't think you could push it in too far for it not to work and as soon as it built up pressure then it would just push it up to where the circlip stops it. That regulator is brand new so I doubt thats the problem. I checked the whole system for leaks and that is all good as well.

I could throw the fuel pressure gauge on it, but wouldn't the fuel pressure be different at idle than it is at WOT so this would only show up on the dyno? In reality there isn't anything more I can do even if the fuel pressure is low. Everything is brand new!

Hopefully I can get through to Bruce today and organise another tuning session. I might just mention your suggestion about the super rich AFRs in the Fuel Stabilised Table, He may have not done a turbo falcon for a while and might have slipped his mind.

Would it have been possible to tune to 6 psi without knowing about this table???

 

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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:48 am 
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You can put the gauge on a hose and go for a short drive.

It could be possible with that injector and rail pressure, impossible to know for sure without seeing his tune.

Jason
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 Post subject: Re: Leaning out on dyno with walbro gss294 and blowby
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:41 am 
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Well just when you think the problem is one thing, it turns out to be another.

I thought my vband clamp was leaking, so I bought a new clamp, gave the surfaces and quick sand and put them back together but that didn't fix my tractor sounding engine. So i decided I would change the exhaust manifold gasket, that fixed my problem but while I was there I noticed that the allen key screw had fallen out of my boost controller!!!!!!! I was so lucky, it was just sitting near the engine mount along with the washer. I reckon I have driven over 200km's with the current problems and it just managed to sit there. This explained the noise I was getting on boost "sounded like air squeezing past a deflated balloon (like a kazoo) and the fact that when I was getting to about 3500rpm I was running out of fuel (over boosting).

I put the screw back in all hesitation problems went away..... I am considering myself lucky I even have a bottom end. That would have been leaning out like a MOFO. I guess that will teach me a lesson about not having my boost gauge near my instrument cluster. However when I did check it, it didn't seem like it was going over 6psi.

Anyway problem solvered!! I am still booked in with Bruce next week to get it tuned for 9 psi and hopefully he has no more problems with fuel delivery.

Geeze I am lucky I found that before it was too late. *crosses fingers bottom end doesn't blow as a result***

 

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