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more oomph, less zip 

 

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 Post subject: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Ride: FG Falcon XT; AU II Ute

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Hi, guys,
I am liking my 2008 falcon FG XT, had it a few weeks. I still have my 1998 au falcon, and strangely, there is something about the AU I still prefer of the FG driving around town, andn that is I like to get up to 60ks quickly when entering busy roads, but I can't find that happy medium between smoothly getting there and having the car really launch.

Maybe there is a way I can trade top end zip for lower end grunt?

Or maybe its just taking me a while to update by AU driving habits?
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:06 pm 
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it may have something to do with the au having a throttle cable= instant throttle responce, and fg having fly by wire throttle= slightly delayed responce???
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Ride: FG Falcon XT; AU II Ute

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thanks for that suggestion, Troyman ... is the fly by wire lag discernible? How would you nail the apex if the lag was that noticeable? I don't think that is it, but perhaps the mapping of the pedal position to throttle setting is different?

I know there is pride in achieving extra kW outputs, is anyone looking at going the other way, to increase low end torque?
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:12 pm 
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johntolhurst wrote:
but perhaps the mapping of the pedal position to throttle setting is different?


This is your answer.

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Ride: FG Falcon XT; AU II Ute

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thanks EFFalcon, yes the throttle mapping might be part of the answer.

The question of a mod to deliver more low end torque remains, to my mind at least.
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:32 pm 
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johntolhurst wrote:
thanks EFFalcon, yes the throttle mapping might be part of the answer.

The question of a mod to deliver more low end torque remains, to my mind at least.


The big difference between an FG and AU? The best part of 200kgs. That on its own will make a difference in how they feel getting to 60kmh.

My brother has a 5 speed 09 FG XR6 with a high flow intake, and my AU (5 speed manual, diff gears, exhaust and pissing oil past the piston rings) will keep him honest to 140kmh when his superior power takes over.

Put diff gears in the FG if you can, especialy if its a 5 speed. Don't know if the 6 speed would be that bad off the line given its nice spread of ratio's.

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Ride: FG Falcon XT; AU II Ute

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I just had a play with the throttle.

The spring resistance is very progressive.

The first about 8mm of travel doesn't bring it off idle, this is why its hard to pull out into traffic, press 8mm and get nothing, then get something.

Throttle up to 1,500 RPM, pump the accelerator pedal in about 5mm increments, no noticeable change in RPM. Which means its not just a lag, or a delay, but its more a sort of 'you have to convince me you really do want more throttle'

Lag on throttle appears to be about half a second, by my rough feel of it.

So ... all fly by wires are like this are they?
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:01 pm 
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johntolhurst wrote:
I just had a play with the throttle.

The spring resistance is very progressive.

The first about 8mm of travel doesn't bring it off idle, this is why its hard to pull out into traffic, press 8mm and get nothing, then get something.

Throttle up to 1,500 RPM, pump the accelerator pedal in about 5mm increments, no noticeable change in RPM. Which means its not just a lag, or a delay, but its more a sort of 'you have to convince me you really do want more throttle'

Lag on throttle appears to be about half a second, by my rough feel of it.

So ... all fly by wires are like this are they?

the ve series 1 ute (3.6L v6) has the same issue, what also makes the ve worse is it has a 6 speed auto(my mates did anyway) and they have less torque than the e series falcons, so its very lagged off the line but you push that throttle just a bit more and it drops back a million gears and revs it head off and goes hard, makes it very difficult to drive

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:13 pm 
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I have driven 2 cars and a forklift with fly by wire, all toyotas. I found them annoying as the throttle response wasn't as immediate as a cable operated throttle. In the Corolla, you push down a little to take off (automatic transmission) and nothing happens. Push a little more and you get neck snapping acceleration, well as much as possible in a Corolla anyway.

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Ride: FG Falcon XT; AU II Ute

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic ... le_control

Seems to me that the chances of the car leaping forward of the line due to an unintended stab at the throttle is greatly reduced. And when the car is travelling and revs are up, throttle response is very good.

I guess I'll acclimatise.

If the performance mods gurus want to step in and tell me trading power for torque is stupid and no one knows how to do it then that's a disappointment I'll accept. :roll: :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 pm 
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I'll say it again. If it is a 5 speed auto, ditch the stock diff gears. 2.73:1 is what some research is showing it should have. Someone on here with an FG would know where to check (either inside the drivers door on a plate, or on the diff housing itself).

Grab a set of 3.73:1 diff gears from an XR6 turbo, and you will s**t yourself at the difference they make off the line and around town.

Your car has a kerb weight of over 1.7 tonnes. Give it a hand shifting that bulk by adjusting the final drive ratio to something a bit more competant.

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:20 am 
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Thanks Grimketel, I do follow your suggestion - lower gearing, quicker off the line.

What I am really searching for is waftability, rather than sprintability. I want as much acceleration as I can get, without the engine reving much.

""A Rolls-Royce should be effortless in every way: the way it accelerates, brakes and handles," Rolls-Royce Engineering Director Helmut Riedl said." (http://www.themotorreport.com.au/34163/ ... ion-system)

I am looking to maximise that effortlessness, chip mod, or something, I don't know the answer. I don't even know if there is an answer. That was the idea, tuning for torque rather than power, what we might have got if power stats were not the first thing journalists want to blab about. :)
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:18 am 
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well as mentioned diff gears.

shorter gears in sense, multiply the torque :)
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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:26 pm 
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bry40l wrote:
the ve series 1 ute (3.6L v6) has the same issue, what also makes the ve worse is it has a 6 speed auto(my mates did anyway) and they have less torque than the e series falcons, so its very lagged off the line but you push that throttle just a bit more and it drops back a million gears and revs it head off and goes hard, makes it very difficult to drive


My mates commodore with the 3.6L engine is the same, it makes it really hard to drive in traffic compared to mine because you go to pull out and nothing happens when you press the throttle about 8mm down. Which is strange, because you think they could easily tune it to be instant. Perhaps it's a liability thing...

 

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 Post subject: Re: more oomph, less zip
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:31 am 
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johntolhurst wrote:
What I am really searching for is waftability, rather than sprintability. I want as much acceleration as I can get, without the engine reving much.

I am looking to maximise that effortlessness, chip mod, or something, I don't know the answer. I don't even know if there is an answer. That was the idea, tuning for torque rather than power, what we might have got if power stats were not the first thing journalists want to blab about. :)


a shorter diff ratio will do that, as each gear will feel stronger than before. Revving the engine won't matter because you will still be making the same torque and power from the engine at the same points as before, just making better use of what you already have. Diff ratio's are often fords weakpoints. They are made for slugging along at moderate pace to save fuel.

On the tunning front, a flash tune or chip mod, done correctly will increase torque. Power and torque go hand in hand, since power is a result of torque multiplied by revs. A good tuner should be able to improve the throttle response as well.

If you want effortlessness you need both power and torque. Supercharging or turbocharging are the best ways to get this if coin isn't a problem. More air in= more bang providing more torque.

But in all seriousness, an xr6 turbo diff ratio is probably the biggest bang for your buck mod you could do to increase how repsonsive the car feels. Do that, and a basic flash tune to sharpen throttle response and maybe clean up the engine maps for a few more KW and NM and you will be left scratching your head as to why the car just isnt released this way.

 

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