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PHENOLIC SPACERS for Broad Band Manifold... 

 

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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:50 pm 
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i like your thinking!
it sounds like a good idea.
but dont forget that you might have an issue with the throttle cable position as the cable outer is also bolted to the rocker cover.. and once you move the manifold it will be pulling on the cable..unless you put a spacer on the t/b aswell..
so you will need to modify that aswell...
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:25 pm 
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:07 pm 
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the only real way to know if it will work they way you think it will, is to make hand full and test them.

there are a few people here that can help with proper testing.


I've also added two graphs to show what an increase in runner length of 1/2inch (12.7mm) is likely to do.

the grahp that has the higher peak power is the short runner graph.

 

 

Attachments:
short runner compair.jpg
short runner compair.jpg [ 60 KiB | Viewed 586 times ]
long runner compair.jpg
long runner compair.jpg [ 56.61 KiB | Viewed 589 times ]

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:44 am 
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Steady ED wrote:
Grimketel wrote:
You wont see a BBM on a ferrari.

You sure about that :D

Quote:
Variable Intake: Butterfly valve in carbon fiber intake manifold closed at low rpm, open at high rpm


http://www.remarkablecars.com/main/ferr ... i-f50.html

Sound familiar?
Not just F50 got it either.
Alot of manufacturers use/used similar stuff.
Sure you may be able to get a slightly better power figure at one point in the RPM range going to a fixed length manifold, but a variable length will always give you more average power.


:shock: and the eyes openeth. cheers dude.




Quote:
ead them front to back a few times and then spend few good weeks searching a reading whats on the WWW. then come back here and we'll talk some more.


now now, not sure if thats meant to be condescending. I am reading whats on the WWW. its what fordmods is for dude, finding stuff out. I never said i was right, just what I thought. you would have the opinion that the world is flat unless taught otherwise, so keep that in mind.

Quote:
Grim wrote:

dont forget the fuel still has to travel down the intake port which will be hot, and the injectors should be soaking radiant heat off the head. Cant see it being a huge impact. clean injectors, especially the later spray patern should be atomising well enough for anyones street performance purposes.

Uhm. Injectors will soak a little radiant heat, sure. But nothing like the heat transfered directly with the standard set up. The injector is wedged between fuel rail and manifold - if the manifold is colder, then the injector should be too.


yes, the injector would be colder, thats understood, my point was would it really make that much difference to atomisation on a street falcon if it were colder?



Quote:
Well now - I actually think at low RPM (not much suck) that any cooling is good cooling. Go ask someone with a turbo or supercharger if they use an intercooler. WHY DO THEY USE IT? Because hot air is s**t at getting bang for your buck when compressing and exploding.


of course cooler is better. not that it would be cooling the air per se, just keeping it from gaining any extra heat. the FI method will need some form of cooling to scrub the heat generated by the forced induction. Until some real temp datalogs are done, its debateable how much heat the air traveling through a NA manifold actually picks up from it. I was just musing that with the manifold being warm, the heat transfer actually expanding the air slightly, which could theoretically help the speed at which its moving. Key word being musing.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:07 am 
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I go back to the original reason for this spacer idea - The concept of keeping the whole CAI doing what it should - COLD AIR INDUCTED into chamber. By combining cold air getting to filter and keeping all the induction path from that point on as cool as possible you could prevent air from heating at all by the time it hits the chamber.

In the logs, above, it appears that actual temperature is surprisingly warm. Where does the air get heated and why? If the ambient temperature outside car is 20 degrees, why is the air hitting higher temperatures by the time it passes the gauge?

I suppose the temp gauge could actually be soaking heat itself?

Ho hum...
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:34 am 
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fiend wrote:
I go back to the original reason for this spacer idea - The concept of keeping the whole CAI doing what it should - COLD AIR INDUCTED into chamber. By combining cold air getting to filter and keeping all the induction path from that point on as cool as possible you could prevent air from heating at all by the time it hits the chamber.

In the logs, above, it appears that actual temperature is surprisingly warm. Where does the air get heated and why? If the ambient temperature outside car is 20 degrees, why is the air hitting higher temperatures by the time it passes the gauge?

I suppose the temp gauge could actually be soaking heat itself?

Ho hum...



most of the heat is from the air box.

 

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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:35 am 
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Okay. So I am on the right track having disposed of the air box and replaced it with my patented cold air deflection (CAD, tm) device that has a 4 by 3 inch grill in the bonnet next to headlight and having chopped the inside of the bonnet away (along with lining) to promote cool air flow to filter.

Although I came up with this idea myself, as it turns out it is remarkably similar to what the old 80's V8's did - The Bathurst winning Commodores from the era had a big tray that started at the top of front radiator and sealed to bonnet lining to provide a cool air tunnel to the filter....

The next thing to change would be venting the hot, dirty air expelled from radiator. This can be done by blocking the whole engine bay in front of BBM, which is within capabilities, but would actually decrease the radiators cooling function... Much better answer --- a well positioned bonnet vent.

Next on the list is the flexipipe ducting. I am using a BA intake at this point and have been told by an aeronautic engineer that the flow properties of that could be improved by the use of a pipe without the rings and flexible nature. Thankfully, since I am not using the standard air box, it doesn't need to flex as the pod filter moves with the engine when torque kicks in. Answer for this heating up is complicated and brings us back to the bonnet vent and a heat shield below and on the engine side of the BBM.

Last on the list is throttle body and BBM itself. By seperating as much as possible from any direct heat source (head of engine) and putting a shield between block and lower BBM (as far as appropriate... There are going to be issues with all sorts of things - Leads going to the coil pack, heater hoses - even the pipes from the charcoal filter... This "heat shield" will become more of a "heat bikini" but will be effective at the front of the manifold, which is where it is hottest.

Once all of this is done the actual intake temperature should be about as low as you're ever going to make it.

If you are totally stuck on using your original air box, could I suggest getting a thin piece of metal (mine is made from an old computer case) and cutting it to fit from wheel arch to headlight leaving a gap between it and the air box... Either that or use a hot water cylinder wrap --- thick tin foil with about an inch of pink bat glass fibre insulation on the back --- and wrap the box and pipe real good.





:arrow: Fiends Fabulous Fiery Fabrication point Six (FFFF.00000110) is on the way. Have only made two (2) of them, and yet to be fully paid for --- BUT PROGRESS IS HAPPENING.

If you believe the "MACE ENGINEERING" e-bay advertisements then you'd think that I'm on a winner. If all the subsequent testing that could happen proves them wrong, then I will personally attempt to contact the thousands of people who use them and tell them they've been had.

There are (as stated previously) a whole heap of very serious go fast people who use similar to this... The Nissan Inline 6 drifty boys seem to think they work great.

"Dyno's don't lie - The seat of your pants does...."

Dynos can actually lie a bit as far as cars with computers in them go. Like how the Falcon has a "warm start" mode that would mean you have to leave car running and driving (ie, gear and rev changes) for five minutes until the car even thinks about delivering maximum results.

Agreed that the seat of your pants is way more capable of lying than a dyno.

What really needs to happen here is test the actual induction temp within manifold in a standard car driven around town, out the motorway, in traffic and then a quick blast around the block. IE - Drive it like normal for half an hour and see what happens.

Install FFFF.00000110 and try again. Just make sure the ambient temperature is the same, please!!!

Unfortunately, do not have the data logging capability this requires.

May just go and buy one of those "point and measure" temp gauges that you just point at the object and it provides celcius within .5 of a degree from 20 cm away... How they do this is beyond me. It wouldn't be beyond me if actually studying up on it. But then I have not cleaned out the car or removed the bellhousing and four apple boxes of car bits from my mates garage either!...

Am having trouble finding all my tools and a few bits of trim from the boot appear to have been misplaced. Need to replace those before the insurance assesor gets a look in.

Have enough headaches just finding my shoes and cellphone in the morning. Lucky the missus keeps a track of where me socks are.

Rightiho then.
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:37 am 
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Am still keen for "galapalotogos01" or Trickyford to get one of these... Especially keen on swapping with the galopergators Chip if such a thing could be arranged....


Love you long time GI.
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:33 am 
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opto wrote:
Nice datalog however, can you tell us which trace colour is what please.


Olive =ACT (air charge temp)
Pink = IAT (inlet air temp)
Purple = TPS
Brown = MAF
Green = RPM
Blue = ECT

fiend wrote:
Dyno's dont lie.


Bloody oath dyno's lie, fudge a couple of temp/humidity/pressure figures and then play the ride the roller game, and your figures will walk around big time. However with a logger, you can look at your temps as Ive shown above (and we all know that our cars run better on cold days) and you can look at how fast your RPM or VSS rises over a set time period, and you have a datum to work from. If your trying to show off, you could of course do one run up a hill, and the next down a hill and show the difference in elapsed time, however this is not what Ive show above as mine is temp relevant mainly, and cant really be fudged without a bit of effort.

There is only one way to know if this works as Tickford6 said, you have to test it and accurately record the results, and an ET is probably one of the best methods of recording data. I think you hit the nail on the head with your radiator heat transfer on to the manifold, but you will never know if you dont play.

 

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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:02 am 
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Commercial Sponsor wrote:
Bloody oath dyno's lie, fudge a couple of figures and then play the ride the roller.....


Mate - I was merely quoting someone else when I said "Dyno's don't lie - the seat of your pants does"... Which, when given in context, actually is reasonably correct. A dyno, given all things equal, would give a better picture than the seat of your pants.


Which brings me to the age old question --- Would a dyno give a better picture than the seat of Kylie Minogue or Beyonces pants?



Anyways --- Am making a couple of these units, as already stated and would like some testing done, for sure. Although, so saying that, I'd much prefer to get some money back (or arrange something for the J3 with a manual gearbox data installed...)
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:18 pm 
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:55 pm 
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BUGGER ME! FAST XR emailed those guys to see why they did it like that (see this thread, above) and now that. Damn it...! I have the material here now too... Ah well, there goes another one of my great ideas. Good spotting BENJ.

They also say "EXCLUSIVE! And DESIGN REGISTERED!" What the phuck? Looks exactly like a standard Ford gasket made out of different stuff. And nope - Not exclusive, as this thread proves!

Rank.

Never mind... I even noticed they've put the price down to the $100AU mark! Am beginning to think they've been watching this thread too.......

:roll:

Phuckit...
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:14 pm 
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They must have rushed these things into production in the last week (surprise surprise) as their instructions on the site will not work...
Also, they keep referring to things that are on their old design, not this one.


And they don't seem to have thought through all the angles on their product.

It is 12mm for a start... Which brings all sorts of things into play that I'd prefer to avoid. Anyways, bugger them with a large oar.

Have sent them an email asking about their "EXCLUSIVE" etc etc etc. I wonder if they ever bother getting back to me?
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:11 pm 
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Hey guys

We developed this idea a while back.

Don't believe us. well check out the following link from IP Australia...

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/adds ... ple_search

Then type in the "Registration Number" section "318175"

It will be shown that it was lodged on the 2007.12.07 almost a year ago...

When we develop products there is an inherent amount of lag to the time we market them.

Only recently did we get time up our sleeves to start listing some more items. We'll also be listing some more that we've already developed over the coming months, subject to testing results.

Kindest Regards,
Steve
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